From emma.med at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 10:56:14 2007 From: emma.med at gmail.com (emma d) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 10:56:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response Message-ID: Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the outrageously content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone Abhik's response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo like you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070301/402f947c/attachment.html From iram at sarai.net Thu Mar 1 14:38:41 2007 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:38:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> Dear list members, Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements regrading other list members and communities on this forum. The reader list is a non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the challenge lies - How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) exercise our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be remembered by the archives of this list and read/ understood by people who browse our public archives in future? No one can stop a list member from writing what they like but its a personal request - please think before you click the send button. Best Iram (co - member of reader-list) emma d wrote: > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the outrageously > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone Abhik's > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo like > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From hpp at vsnl.com Thu Mar 1 16:30:12 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:00:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Day of the Jackal Message-ID: The Day of the Jackal by Rahul B rahul.indauri at gmail.com http://rahulbanerjee.notlong.com/ Sagarbai a Bhilala adivasi (tribal) widow has finally emerged victorious after a long drawn legal battle for justice fought in the High Court of Madhya Pradesh over the last eight years against a government and administration bent on disregarding the "rule of law" and their constitutional obligations towards the adivasis. In September 1999 a team of forest department officials raided the village of Katukya in Dewas district of Madhya Pradesh at 6 am in the morning and fired on and killed Roopsingh, a Bhilala adivasi who was returning from answering nature's call. The forest officials had gone ostensibly to arrest one Balu for allegedly having cut timber from the forest. Why they had to go at the unearthly hour of 6 a.m. to do this and why they had to enter the village with their guns spitting bullets remains officially unexplained to this day. However, the fact is that this murderous foray was part of an ongoing illegal exercise sanctioned by the government of the day to crush a mass organisation of the adivasis, Adivasi Morcha Sangathan (AMS), which had over the past four years or so been protesting against the corruption and mis-governance rampant in the area since independence and demanding the implementation of the special provisions of local governance enacted for Scheduled adivasi areas in accordance with the Panchayat Provisions (Extension to Scheduled Areas) Act 1996. The murder of Roopsingh evoked an immediate protest response from the AMS members as they amassed in thousands in front of the Police Station in Udainagar with his dead body demanding the immediate filing of a case of murder and the arrest of the guilty officials. The administration had to yield to these demands under public pressure. According to the provisions of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Rules 1995, the state has to provide monetary compensation to the heirs of the deceased when an adivasi is murdered by a non-adivasi. So the AMS pressed for this compensation to be paid to Roopsingh's widow Sagarbai. Despite all the formalities being completed the District Magistrate did not pay the compensation making the specious plea that since the forest guard who had fired on Roopsingh was an adivasi, the provisions of the Atrocities Act did not apply. The counter arguments of the AMS that all the members of the team, which included and was led by non-adivasis, had gone together to perform state duty and had illegally killed Roopsingh and so they were all together along with the state responsible for the crime were summarily brushed aside. The AMS then went to the High Court in Indore against this arbitrary decision of the District Magistrate in September 2000 and the case was admitted. However, on the day of the final hearing the honourable judge gave the astounding excuse that since the rules for Madhya Pradesh were framed in Hindi he could not give a judgment as this latter had to be written in English. No amount of pleading that the rules in question had been published in the gazette of Madhya Pradesh in Hindi only could make the judge budge and he demanded an official translation from the government advocate. The latter conveniently dilly-dallied and so the case was thus pushed back onto the slow backburner of pending cases. Even though the judge hearing the case was changed after some time the government advocate would make some plea or other and get the case postponed every time it came up for a hearing. Things would have continued in this frustrating manner had not the Supreme Court sent strict orders to the High Court that during the summer vacation of 2005 a special bench should be constituted to dispose of the 1000 oldest cases that were still pending in the court. Roopsingh's case happened to be in this list and so it came up for hearing on 19.5.2005. This time the government prosecutor made the weird plea that since the District Magistrate had not passed any written order refusing to give the relief that was demanded there was no cause for action by the High Court. Surprisingly the learned judge despite protests from the petitioner's lawyer went along with this to some extent but had the grace to admit that the District Magistrate had no business not to give a written order even after so much time had elapsed. So he passed an order directing that the District Magistrate should give the relief to the petitioner in accordance with the rules and write a reasoned order based on the facts of the case within two months of a repeat application being made by the petitioner along with the certified copy of the High Court's order. When Roopsingh's widow Sagarbai met the District Magistrate and gave him this new application along with the High Court's order, the first comment that he made after reading it was that in his opinion this was not a fit case as the forest guard who had fired and killed Roopsingh was an adivasi! This was a different person from the District Magistrate who had initially given this same idiotic excuse some six years back but such is the consistency of the training in stonewalling given to the bureaucracy in this country that they invariably come out with the same checkmating answers regardless of the person. The AMS once again went to the High Court against this order of the District Magistrate. On December 6th 2006 the High Court passed an order directing the administration to deposit Rs 2,00,000 in a fixed deposit in a nationalised bank in the name of Sagarbai within a month of the passing of the order, failing which it would have to pay interest at the rate of 9% per annum on the amount. The honourable judge while passing the order made note of two landmark judgments of the Supreme Court stating that - 1. Functionaries of the government cannot themselves become law breakers and adopt inhuman methods in trying to enforce the law against alleged offenders as they had done in this case while ostensibly going to apprehend Balu for an alleged timber cutting offence (D. K. Basu vs State of West Bengal, 1997 (1) SCC 416). 2. The Government is vicariously liable to compensate the victims of such lawlessness on the part of its functionaries and if it doesn't then it is the responsibility of the High and Supreme Courts to ensure that it does so (Nilabati Behera vs State of Orissa, 1993 (2) SCC 746). The AMS persisted with this case and spent Rs 50,000 on it not just for the compensation, which is paltry in any case, but more importantly to make a small contribution towards establishing the non-existent "rule of law" for the long suffering adivasis in this country. I have fought many battles for the rights of the Bhil adivasis over the past quarter of a century and lost most given the odds that are stacked against them. This is one of the rare victories won in the teeth of governmental opposition and it is by far the sweetest. In a presently pending case before the honourable Supreme Court filed by the National Council of Civil Liberties of Ahmedabad against the Narmada Bachao Andolan, I too have been impleaded along with the NBA for allegedly being a seditious anti-national. The basis for this serious charge as usual is a farrago of lies and false cases against me compiled by the biggest law-breakers in this country - the police. If one is to believe their story then I am as dangerous and wily as the assassin "Jackal" in Frederick Forsyth's thriller "The Day of the Jackal". While Forsyth's nefarious Jackal failed in his mission to assassinate the French President Charles de Gaulle, our own nefarious government has finally been checkm ated by this jackal! From hpp at vsnl.com Thu Mar 1 16:31:45 2007 From: hpp at vsnl.com (hpp at vsnl.com) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:01:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Day of the Jackal Message-ID: The Day of the Jackal by Rahul B rahul.indauri at gmail.com http://rahulbanerjee.notlong.com/ Sagarbai a Bhilala adivasi (tribal) widow has finally emerged victorious after a long drawn legal battle for justice fought in the High Court of Madhya Pradesh over the last eight years against a government and administration bent on disregarding the "rule of law" and their constitutional obligations towards the adivasis. In September 1999 a team of forest department officials raided the village of Katukya in Dewas district of Madhya Pradesh at 6 am in the morning and fired on and killed Roopsingh, a Bhilala adivasi who was returning from answering nature's call. The forest officials had gone ostensibly to arrest one Balu for allegedly having cut timber from the forest. Why they had to go at the unearthly hour of 6 a.m. to do this and why they had to enter the village with their guns spitting bullets remains officially unexplained to this day. However, the fact is that this murderous foray was part of an ongoing illegal exercise sanctioned by the government of the day to crush a mass organisation of the adivasis, Adivasi Morcha Sangathan (AMS), which had over the past four years or so been protesting against the corruption and mis-governance rampant in the area since independence and demanding the implementation of the special provisions of local governance enacted for Scheduled adivasi areas in accordance with the Panchayat Provisions (Extension to Scheduled Areas) Act 1996. The murder of Roopsingh evoked an immediate protest response from the AMS members as they amassed in thousands in front of the Police Station in Udainagar with his dead body demanding the immediate filing of a case of murder and the arrest of the guilty officials. The administration had to yield to these demands under public pressure. According to the provisions of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Rules 1995, the state has to provide monetary compensation to the heirs of the deceased when an adivasi is murdered by a non-adivasi. So the AMS pressed for this compensation to be paid to Roopsingh's widow Sagarbai. Despite all the formalities being completed the District Magistrate did not pay the compensation making the specious plea that since the forest guard who had fired on Roopsingh was an adivasi, the provisions of the Atrocities Act did not apply. The counter arguments of the AMS that all the members of the team, which included and was led by non-adivasis, had gone together to perform state duty and had illegally killed Roopsingh and so they were all together along with the state responsible for the crime were summarily brushed aside. The AMS then went to the High Court in Indore against this arbitrary decision of the District Magistrate in September 2000 and the case was admitted. However, on the day of the final hearing the honourable judge gave the astounding excuse that since the rules for Madhya Pradesh were framed in Hindi he could not give a judgment as this latter had to be written in English. No amount of pleading that the rules in question had been published in the gazette of Madhya Pradesh in Hindi only could make the judge budge and he demanded an official translation from the government advocate. The latter conveniently dilly-dallied and so the case was thus pushed back onto the slow backburner of pending cases. Even though the judge hearing the case was changed after some time the government advocate would make some plea or other and get the case postponed every time it came up for a hearing. Things would have continued in this frustrating manner had not the Supreme Court sent strict orders to the High Court that during the summer vacation of 2005 a special bench should be constituted to dispose of the 1000 oldest cases that were still pending in the court. Roopsingh's case happened to be in this list and so it came up for hearing on 19.5.2005. This time the government prosecutor made the weird plea that since the District Magistrate had not passed any written order refusing to give the relief that was demanded there was no cause for action by the High Court. Surprisingly the learned judge despite protests from the petitioner's lawyer went along with this to some extent but had the grace to admit that the District Magistrate had no business not to give a written order even after so much time had elapsed. So he passed an order directing that the District Magistrate should give the relief to the petitioner in accordance with the rules and write a reasoned order based on the facts of the case within two months of a repeat application being made by the petitioner along with the certified copy of the High Court's order. When Roopsingh's widow Sagarbai met the District Magistrate and gave him this new application along with the High Court's order, the first comment that he made after reading it was that in his opinion this was not a fit case as the forest guard who had fired and killed Roopsingh was an adivasi! This was a different person from the District Magistrate who had initially given this same idiotic excuse some six years back but such is the consistency of the training in stonewalling given to the bureaucracy in this country that they invariably come out with the same checkmating answers regardless of the person. The AMS once again went to the High Court against this order of the District Magistrate. On December 6th 2006 the High Court passed an order directing the administration to deposit Rs 2,00,000 in a fixed deposit in a nationalised bank in the name of Sagarbai within a month of the passing of the order, failing which it would have to pay interest at the rate of 9% per annum on the amount. The honourable judge while passing the order made note of two landmark judgments of the Supreme Court stating that - 1. Functionaries of the government cannot themselves become law breakers and adopt inhuman methods in trying to enforce the law against alleged offenders as they had done in this case while ostensibly going to apprehend Balu for an alleged timber cutting offence (D. K. Basu vs State of West Bengal, 1997 (1) SCC 416). 2. The Government is vicariously liable to compensate the victims of such lawlessness on the part of its functionaries and if it doesn't then it is the responsibility of the High and Supreme Courts to ensure that it does so (Nilabati Behera vs State of Orissa, 1993 (2) SCC 746). The AMS persisted with this case and spent Rs 50,000 on it not just for the compensation, which is paltry in any case, but more importantly to make a small contribution towards establishing the non-existent "rule of law" for the long suffering adivasis in this country. I have fought many battles for the rights of the Bhil adivasis over the past quarter of a century and lost most given the odds that are stacked against them. This is one of the rare victories won in the teeth of governmental opposition and it is by far the sweetest. In a presently pending case before the honourable Supreme Court filed by the National Council of Civil Liberties of Ahmedabad against the Narmada Bachao Andolan, I too have been impleaded along with the NBA for allegedly being a seditious anti-national. The basis for this serious charge as usual is a farrago of lies and false cases against me compiled by the biggest law-breakers in this country - the police. If one is to believe their story then I am as dangerous and wily as the assassin "Jackal" in Frederick Forsyth's thriller "The Day of the Jackal". While Forsyth's nefarious Jackal failed in his mission to assassinate the French President Charles de Gaulle, our own nefarious government has finally been checkm ated by this jackal! From iram at sarai.net Thu Mar 1 16:56:22 2007 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:56:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: References: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> Message-ID: <45E6B85E.2010406@sarai.net> Emma, I think you are confusing issues. A) "don't you have anyone to fuck" is not a nice thing to say to anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by Abhik. I chose not to comment on those. B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to TECHNICAL glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content of the mail (unless there are attachments) I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been sent on this list before and I will forward them to you in a separate mail. C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative statement. You should read it again. "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of the exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been subjected to because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of Abhik's off list email to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's language betrays an unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not exactly exemplars of liberality and tolerance." Best Iram emma d wrote: > Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's approval" > thingy disappear then! Emma > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* > > wrote: > > Dear list members, > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements regrading > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader list > is a > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the challenge > lies - > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) > exercise > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be remembered by the > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who browse our > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member from writing > what they like but its a personal request - please think before you > click the send button. > Best > Iram > (co - member of reader-list) > > > > > emma d wrote: > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the > outrageously > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone > Abhik's > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo > like > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From iram at sarai.net Thu Mar 1 17:38:30 2007 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:38:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: References: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> <45E6B85E.2010406@sarai.net> Message-ID: <45E6C23E.6080500@sarai.net> Dear Emma, You should have thought of that before you make statements like - "Even pimps have more dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you!" on a public list. Anyway, I do hope your anxieties regarding list 'moderation' are satisfied. Best Iram emma d wrote: > Get a life man! Is there any point in going on and on about Shuddha's > response to Jogis' posting! Seriously, get a life! Besides, I > certainly believe you ought to re-read Shuddha's response entirely > again, wherein he expresses how he "understands" that weirdo's > response to Jogi's crazed posting! > The end? Amen? > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* > > wrote: > > Emma, > > I think you are confusing issues. > > A) "don't you have anyone to fuck" is not a nice thing to say to > anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by > Abhik. > I chose not to comment on those. > > B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to > TECHNICAL > glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content > of the > mail (unless there are attachments) > > I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been > sent on > this list before and I will forward them to you in a separate mail. > > C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns > regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative > statement. You should read it again. > > "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of the > exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been > subjected to because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of > Abhik's off list email to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's > language betrays an > unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not > exactly exemplars of liberality and tolerance." > > Best > Iram > > emma d wrote: > > Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed > > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first > > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's approval" > > thingy disappear then! Emma > > > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* >> > > wrote: > > > > Dear list members, > > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements > regrading > > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader > list > > is a > > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the challenge > > lies - > > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) > > exercise > > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be > remembered by the > > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who > browse our > > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member > from writing > > what they like but its a personal request - please think > before you > > click the send button. > > Best > > Iram > > (co - member of reader-list) > > > > > > > > > > emma d wrote: > > > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the > > outrageously > > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone > > Abhik's > > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a > background he > > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A > pseudo > > like > > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have > more > > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > From t.ray at vsnl.com Thu Mar 1 17:55:47 2007 From: t.ray at vsnl.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:25:47 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response References: Message-ID: <007901c75bfc$be9b6650$ba00a8c0@Tapas> 1. What is happeing on this list is a reflection of what has been happening in India at large. By posting the link to that weird blog with an incedibly offensive title, Ms Jogi has succeeded in turning this list into a hate space - just what the Hindutva people have managed to do with politics at large in India. 2. As a Bengali man, I find Emma's reference to "some Bong men" offensive. I wonder if someone with a mindset and a language like that is competent to wonder about Abhit's "background". Tapas > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the outrageously > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone Abhik's > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he comes > from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo like you seems > to > "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more dignity than some Bong > men, some Bong men like you! From emma.med at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 16:15:38 2007 From: emma.med at gmail.com (emma d) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 16:15:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> References: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's approval" thingy disappear then! Emma On 3/1/07, Iram Ghufran wrote: > > Dear list members, > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements regrading > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader list is a > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the challenge lies - > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) exercise > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be remembered by the > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who browse our > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member from writing > what they like but its a personal request - please think before you > click the send button. > Best > Iram > (co - member of reader-list) > > > > > emma d wrote: > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the outrageously > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone Abhik's > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo like > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070301/dd2631e0/attachment.html From emma.med at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 17:10:48 2007 From: emma.med at gmail.com (emma d) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:10:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: <45E6B85E.2010406@sarai.net> References: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> <45E6B85E.2010406@sarai.net> Message-ID: Get a life man! Is there any point in going on and on about Shuddha's response to Jogis' posting! Seriously, get a life! Besides, I certainly believe you ought to re-read Shuddha's response entirely again, wherein he expresses how he "understands" that weirdo's response to Jogi's crazed posting! The end? Amen? On 3/1/07, Iram Ghufran wrote: > > Emma, > > I think you are confusing issues. > > A) "don't you have anyone to fuck" is not a nice thing to say to > anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by Abhik. > I chose not to comment on those. > > B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to TECHNICAL > glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content of the > mail (unless there are attachments) > > I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been sent on > this list before and I will forward them to you in a separate mail. > > C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns > regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative > statement. You should read it again. > > "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of the > exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been subjected to > because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of Abhik's off list email to > her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's language betrays an > unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not exactly > exemplars of liberality and tolerance." > > Best > Iram > > emma d wrote: > > Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed > > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first > > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's approval" > > thingy disappear then! Emma > > > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* > > > wrote: > > > > Dear list members, > > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements regrading > > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader list > > is a > > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the challenge > > lies - > > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) > > exercise > > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be remembered by the > > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who browse our > > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member from > writing > > what they like but its a personal request - please think before you > > click the send button. > > Best > > Iram > > (co - member of reader-list) > > > > > > > > > > emma d wrote: > > > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the > > outrageously > > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone > > Abhik's > > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he > > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo > > like > > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more > > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070301/ec0e87bf/attachment.html From emma.med at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 17:38:11 2007 From: emma.med at gmail.com (emma d) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:38:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: <45E6C23E.6080500@sarai.net> References: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> <45E6B85E.2010406@sarai.net> <45E6C23E.6080500@sarai.net> Message-ID: Thought of what?! I still believe that even pimps have more dignity than certain Bong men like Shuddha! And, yes thanks for the "moderator" advice On 3/1/07, Iram Ghufran wrote: > > > Dear Emma, > > You should have thought of that before you make statements like - "Even > pimps have more dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you!" on > a public list. > > Anyway, I do hope your anxieties regarding list 'moderation' are > satisfied. > > Best > Iram > > > emma d wrote: > > Get a life man! Is there any point in going on and on about Shuddha's > > response to Jogis' posting! Seriously, get a life! Besides, I > > certainly believe you ought to re-read Shuddha's response entirely > > again, wherein he expresses how he "understands" that weirdo's > > response to Jogi's crazed posting! > > The end? Amen? > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* > > > wrote: > > > > Emma, > > > > I think you are confusing issues. > > > > A) "don't you have anyone to fuck" is not a nice thing to say to > > anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by > > Abhik. > > I chose not to comment on those. > > > > B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to > > TECHNICAL > > glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content > > of the > > mail (unless there are attachments) > > > > I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been > > sent on > > this list before and I will forward them to you in a separate mail. > > > > C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns > > regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative > > statement. You should read it again. > > > > "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of > the > > exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been > > subjected to because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of > > Abhik's off list email to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's > > language betrays an > > unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not > > exactly exemplars of liberality and tolerance." > > > > Best > > Iram > > > > emma d wrote: > > > Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed > > > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first > > > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's > approval" > > > thingy disappear then! Emma > > > > > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* < iram at sarai.net > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear list members, > > > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements > > regrading > > > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader > > list > > > is a > > > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the > challenge > > > lies - > > > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) > > > > exercise > > > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be > > remembered by the > > > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who > > browse our > > > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member > > from writing > > > what they like but its a personal request - please think > > before you > > > click the send button. > > > Best > > > Iram > > > (co - member of reader-list) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emma d wrote: > > > > > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the > > > outrageously > > > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to > condone > > > Abhik's > > > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a > > background he > > > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A > > pseudo > > > like > > > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have > > more > > > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with subscribe in the > > > subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070301/15f40158/attachment.html From anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Mar 1 18:08:21 2007 From: anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk (Anjalika Sagar) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:38:21 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: References: <45E69819.9080406@sarai.net> <45E6B85E.2010406@sarai.net> <45E6C23E.6080500@sarai.net> Message-ID: <45E6C93D.20209@blueyonder.co.uk> Hello, I following this all with a certain distance, but as someone who is interested in slang I am intrigued ; what on earth is a bong man .... Bests Anjali From anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Mar 1 18:21:51 2007 From: anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk (Anjalika Sagar) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:51:51 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: <495206.31084.qm@web53604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <495206.31084.qm@web53604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E6CC67.3030105@blueyonder.co.uk> Thanks - but could you or someone explain the root of this term. Ok I know what a Bong is ... but how does this relate to Bengalis in particular. Cheers Anj > From t.ray at vsnl.com Thu Mar 1 18:32:39 2007 From: t.ray at vsnl.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:02:39 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response References: Message-ID: <00ae01c75c01$e4f59190$ba00a8c0@Tapas> PS to my earlier post: Even though Ms Jogi is probably happy with the way her posts have turned the Sarai list from a very imperfect approximation of a public sphere type space of rational critical discourse into a hate space where identities are being attacked (by Ms Jogi and Emma, for instance) or asserted and defended (as I have done just now), I cannot help thinking that she has reason to be unhappy, too - she can see that there are plenty of list members who will not accept in silence her proselytizing efforts in aid of certain primitive points of view. And yes, I stand with Shuddhabata in "understanding" Abhit's outrage, even though I think, like Shuddha, that his language was wrong, and probably misogynic - even though he merely referred to copulation while the original sin - spreading hatred against Muslims - is often accompanied by rape and murder on a large scale, as in Gujarat, and is not limited to mere verbal references to sexual intercourse ... I should add that I do not know whether Ms Jogi has personally taken part in that sort of mayhem, but she does defend those who indulge in these for breakfast. In law, there is something called "mitigating circumstance". A murder who kills under grave provocation, gets a lesser sentence than one who kills in cold blood. Abhit wrote what he wrote under grave provocation from Ms Jogi. Hence our "understanding". Hope this helps. Tapas Ray > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the outrageously > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone Abhik's > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he comes > from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo like you seems > to > "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more dignity than some Bong > men, some Bong men like you! From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Thu Mar 1 18:38:43 2007 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 05:08:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Origin of "Bong" In-Reply-To: <45E6CC67.3030105@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <904909.34649.qm@web53612.mail.yahoo.com> I would think its just an onomatopoeic connection. p.s. Your attempt to derail the more important discussion is noted:) wrote: > Thanks - but could you or someone explain the root > of this term. Ok I > know what a Bong is ... but how does this relate to > Bengalis in particular. > > Cheers > > Anj > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From rana at ranadasgupta.com Thu Mar 1 19:02:31 2007 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:02:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra and Rana Dasgupta Message-ID: <45E6D5EF.9020405@ranadasgupta.com> *HOW TO BE MODERN * Picador India invites you to a conversation between *Pankaj Mishra* author of TEMPTATIONS OF THE WEST *and Rana Dasgupta* author of TOKYO CANCELLED at 6 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 March 2007 Conference Room I, India International Centre 40 Max Mueller Marg, New Delhi *Pankaj Mishra *is the author of /Butter Chicken in Ludhiana: Travels in Small Town India/, /An End to Suffering: The Buddha in the World/, and a novel, /The Romantics/, which won the /LA Times /Art Seidenbaum award for first fiction. He writes for several publications, including the /New York Review of Books/, the /New Statesman/, /Granta/, the /Times Literary Supplement /and the /Guardian/. /Temptations of the West: How to be Modern in India, Pakistan and Beyond /is his most recent book. *Rana Dasgupta* is based between India and the UK. His first novel, /Tokyo Cancelled/, a thirteen-part story cycle, was published in 2005 and has been translated into nine languages. His work has appeared in such places as the /Guardian/, the /New Statesman /and BBC Radio. He is currently at work on his second novel. From tbd.lists at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 19:05:41 2007 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Dinesh, Servelots) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 19:05:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: <00ae01c75c01$e4f59190$ba00a8c0@Tapas> References: <00ae01c75c01$e4f59190$ba00a8c0@Tapas> Message-ID: <4573cd0e0703010535k4b6c3ed3ncbc224ec65f33058@mail.gmail.com> My apologies to Ms. V [on behalf of the list?]. I do not consider Abhits mail as personal in the sense it has been discussed here. If anything, it is an indication of what Rahul wrote (ref: sleeve) and I assumed Rahul was talking more about Abhit than Shuddha; and am surprised Shuddha took it personally. And I understand more Emma and Rahuls stance; (and likely empathize with them in also the way..) I always have read Shuddha's writings with joy and would have liked to think he expresses my sentiments (atleast until his response and [ad hominem] biases re: V and A! - as noted by Emma - in this list and as a moderator!?). True, many of us are *beyond Hindutva*.. I wonder if we are *beyond Terrorism* for we desire to empathize with fellow folk -- and maybe anything else would just be farse? :) On 3/1/07, Tapas Ray wrote: > PS to my earlier post: > > Even though Ms Jogi is probably happy with the way her posts have turned the > Sarai list from a very imperfect approximation of a public sphere type space > of rational critical discourse into a hate space where identities are being > attacked (by Ms Jogi and Emma, for instance) or asserted and defended (as I > have done just now), I cannot help thinking that she has reason to be > unhappy, too - she can see that there are plenty of list members who will > not accept in silence her proselytizing efforts in aid of certain primitive > points of view. > > And yes, I stand with Shuddhabata in "understanding" Abhit's outrage, even > though I think, like Shuddha, that his language was wrong, and probably > misogynic - even though he merely referred to copulation while the original > sin - spreading hatred against Muslims - is often accompanied by rape and > murder on a large scale, as in Gujarat, and is not limited to mere verbal > references to sexual intercourse ... I should add that I do not know whether > Ms Jogi has personally taken part in that sort of mayhem, but she does > defend those who indulge in these for breakfast. > > In law, there is something called "mitigating circumstance". A murder who > kills under grave provocation, gets a lesser sentence than one who kills in > cold blood. Abhit wrote what he wrote under grave provocation from Ms Jogi. > Hence our "understanding". > > Hope this helps. > > Tapas Ray > > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the outrageously > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone Abhik's > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he comes > > from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo like you seems > > to > > "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more dignity than some Bong > > men, some Bong men like you! > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Dinesh, http://pantoto.com, +9180 26762963 From anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Mar 1 19:28:54 2007 From: anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk (Anjalika Sagar) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 13:58:54 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: <20070301133431.43369.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070301133431.43369.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E6DC1E.7050405@blueyonder.co.uk> no smiley appeared !! ok cool no worries!!! :-[ > From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 1 20:30:13 2007 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S Fatima) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:00:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] urgent meeting for Delhi's trees Message-ID: <347394.55850.qm@web8412.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear all, They come, they see, and they cut - yes - those who build cities and develop it - always find trees standing in the way - As one date - there are over 5000 trees in South- central delhi marked for felling - any body going down Josep Broz tito marg would have seen signs of High capacity bust serve boards and numbers on trees there- similarly numbered are the trees along IIT- towards the airport - near Tilak bridge on the left side the the number was 1300+ just one side many of the trees are nearly centurey old amazing beauriful ones- all marked for felling. Imagine what delhi will be , without these ancientgreen caponies, grey cement and concrete with no respite...can we just let them go? - Please come for an urgent meeting, on cutting of Delhi's trees en mass, at Toxics Link office on Monday 5 March 2007 at 2.30pm. Address is H-2 Jangpura Extension New Delhi (Near Eros cinema) The above message was received through SMS from Ravi Agarwal (Toxics Link). Please pass this on to as many people who can make a difference Further, two RTI applications were filed today. One each with NDMC and PWD for the above. Information has been sought for the period March 2007 to March 2008 RTI would also be filed with MCD, Transport Department this week. The information sought in the RTI is as follows. Total number of trees to be cut on PWD/NDMC roads for Road widening, flyovers, High Capacity Bus, metro, Parking Lots, etc Details of the above -project wise which roads, number of trees, species, age of trees Copy of the policy letter/permission letter for cutting trees Copy of compensatory plantation policy document, Name of the officer/and inspection officer responsible Were any alternate plans explored before deciding on cutting the trees. What were they please give details What are the plans for wood disposal that would result after cutting the trees Here is hoping for the best and praying.... take care and come and get as many as you can who can make a difference jaya / Ayush __________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new http://in.answers.yahoo.com/ From aman.am at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 00:51:43 2007 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 00:51:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response In-Reply-To: <45E6DC1E.7050405@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <20070301133431.43369.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com> <45E6DC1E.7050405@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <995a19920703011121xeb225f2u25c5c21d7cec6b7a@mail.gmail.com> But what about the pimp? Who is the pimp, and why doesnt he have any dignity? If one was to take the idea of the pimp as "the dalal", then, the dalal is often a much respected person - he/she (yes there are women who are dalals) is the one who makes possible impossible things - such as the provision of water/ electricty and land in some authorised colonies; the fixer of arranged marriages between agra and azamgarh; and the person who manipulates autorickshaw meters. So the term dalal to anyone who does anything for a commission. Is that respectable or dignified? well, i would say yes in many instances. Now if one did not translate pimp into dalal - and just considered its usage in certain cultures - like MTV :) - pimping is something that is rather cool. As an example, i offer - MTV's Pimp my Ride, presented by Xzibit. Pimp my Ride, for the uninitiated, is a show where polite, well adjusted individuals get MTV to spent hundreds of dollars to transform their bashed old cars into lean mean automachines. Pimping in this context seems to mean "to ameliorate" or to coin a phrase , "coolize". Given the current coolness of some pimps, i think emma might just be right . A lot of pimps have waaay more dignity than i guess i do. Best, as always, A. On 3/1/07, Anjalika Sagar wrote: > no smiley appeared !! ok cool no worries!!! :-[ > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Mar 2 02:13:50 2007 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 02:13:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response] Message-ID: <45E73B06.4010504@sarai.net> Dear Emma, Iram, Rahul, Tapas, Anjalika, Dinesh, Aman (and everyone else) Now this is really getting interesting. :) In fact far more interesting than what was going on when Vedavati and Abhik were trading charges. The question of dignity is actually worth a real discussion, so maybe we could get down to it one of these days, and while we are at it we should also talk about robustly multi-coloured categories such as humiliation. I am in complete agreement with Emma D when she says that "even pimps have more dignity than certain bong men" and I am including myself in the category of the bong man, once more, in agreement with her when she ends the above statement by saying 'like shuddha'. One cannot escape what in bengali we call 'bongshodosh' (the misfortune of our descent, to which I could add the curse, or mixed blessing, or 'bad luck hi kharab hai' - of one's gonads, though it appears that surgery and modern medicine bring hope to many, especially to those nominally XY chromosomed individuals made melancholic by the misfortune of inappropriate gendering) So, some pimps have a great deal of dignity. Certainly. But let's make things a little more precise and complicated at the same time. Some bong men (not all, some) may have as much dignity as your common or garden pimp, and an insignificant few may in fact have more dignity than the average pimp. It's incredible, I know, but it has been known to happen. I have in fact met one or two incredibly dignified, refined, erudite, and slightly mad, very sad, bong men in my life. (And none of them are now or ever have been, relatives of mine. Dignity is probably a recessive gene in the case of my extended lineage and kinship network.) This is also further complicated by the fact that there are several pimps who also happen to be bong men. I mean, you dont even need to stroll down Shonagachi to know that gentlemen who might answer to names such as 'Tokai','Jhonta' 'Deb-dulal', 'Mortaza moshai' 'Gomes' and 'Boro Photik' are bong, men and pimps. They smell of kashundi, parshey maacch and make their money as only they know best. Some, maybe, such as Deb-dulal, Mortaza Moshai, Gomes, and Boro Photik are honourable and dignified pimps, 'oder baajaare naam-daak acchey', others, such as Tokai and Jhonta are what we would call 'cchoto-lpk, raskel (rascal) and luj (loose) character'. Mairi bolcchi, Dignity comes striated, even when it visits pimps. It is not yet established as to whether all bong women have as much dignity as pimps or bong men. It is also not yet known as to whether bong women who pimp retain as much dignity as others who don't, and other men who do. This is a matter of ongoing investigation. Being a bong man, I am possesed about an ontological certainty about myself and others like me. But I cannot speak with any certainty about bong women. Perhaps the bong women on this list might like to undertake their own self-reflexive auto-critique. But let me not stray. Once again, some women sex workers in genteel semi retirement who do not get to the position of being the 'madam' or 'mashi' sometimes have to make do with being 'ejent (agent)' or 'didi' or dalal, or pimp. This happens, and some, who might be called 'Komola', or 'Mrinmoyee' (Minu) or 'Fatema-bi', or 'Agnes' might be actually women possessed of great honour and dignity. On the other hand, it is quite likely that others who might have names like 'Elokeshi' and 'Paanchi' might have cheated a lot of sex workers (their own erstwhile comrades) of their due. "Kono shala maagi ba dalaaler maathaye morjaadar hishep aanka nei.Maathai tilok kaata bamun-thakur hoyto-ba morjaadar naap ta nitey ebong ditey paaren, kintu aamar moto dalaaler eto baar ekhono baareni je haamesha inchi tape niye nijer morjadar aaga-paanch-tola doirgho-prosto nepey berabo. Shomoye'r boro obhab, memshayeb, boro shonkot. Aar ta cchara, koto jinisher hisheb jey ekhono baaki." yani-ke "Kisi raand ya bharue ke maathe par uske maryada ka naap-tol likha nahin hota. Maathey pe tilak kaat kar maryaada ko pongey-pandit naapte honge, lekin mujh jaise bharuey ki itni aukaad nahin hai ki mai hamesha inchi tape leke apney maryaade ke lambaai-chaaurai ke maujuda haal ka khabar detey firun. Time-time ki baat hoti hai mem'saab, aur hamaare paas time kam hai. Aur bahut kuch baaki hai naapne ko. " Apologies, readers, for the untranslatable, which must remain more or less as such. But since ethnic references have come into play with such full force, I thought it might be interesting to ask how we gloss 'pimping' which describes an activity in relation to 'bong' which describes the accident of birth, language and to some extent, geography. I can see quite easily how one can put 'pimps' with 'commission agent' or 'negotiator' or 'adjuster' or even 'accountant' or 'public relations professional' in one sub set and 'mallus' with 'bongs' and 'uplas' in another. One is a vocation or profession or calling, and the other is a description of the language one speaks, or the cultural matrix one inherits, embedded in, or trapped by. But the mathematics that allows us to construct a calculation that involves both 'bongs' and 'pimps' as indices that can be read off each other in terms of the intensity of dignity is somehow opaque to me. I want to understand how we can actually conduct this operation, how 'pimp' and 'bong' can be made to stand together as terms with interchangable valence in the same equation. (How else would we be able to make a quantitative comparison between these two vis a vis that enigmatic third term - 'dignity') Instinctively, I have a sense that what Emma D is saying is right. "Even pimps have more dignity than certain bong men". But I want to understand what makes this sentence so accurate. I really do. I will be grateful if Emma d or anyone else, can shed light on this matter. warm regards, benche thakun, I hope none of you will take amiss my sincere effort to understand all that is being said, by everyone concerned. Shuddha, emma d wrote: > Thought of what?! I still believe that even pimps have more dignity than > certain Bong men like Shuddha! > > And, yes thanks for the "moderator" advice > > > On 3/1/07, Iram Ghufran wrote: > >> >> >> Dear Emma, >> >> You should have thought of that before you make statements like - "Even >> pimps have more dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you!" on >> a public list. >> >> Anyway, I do hope your anxieties regarding list 'moderation' are >> satisfied. >> >> Best >> Iram >> >> >> emma d wrote: >> > Get a life man! Is there any point in going on and on about Shuddha's >> > response to Jogis' posting! Seriously, get a life! Besides, I >> > certainly believe you ought to re-read Shuddha's response entirely >> > again, wherein he expresses how he "understands" that weirdo's >> > response to Jogi's crazed posting! >> > The end? Amen? >> > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* > >> > wrote: >> > >> > Emma, >> > >> > I think you are confusing issues. >> > >> > A) "don't you have anyone to fuck" is not a nice thing to say to >> > anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by >> > Abhik. >> > I chose not to comment on those. >> > >> > B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to >> > TECHNICAL >> > glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content >> > of the >> > mail (unless there are attachments) >> > >> > I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been >> > sent on >> > this list before and I will forward them to you in a separate mail. >> > >> > C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns >> > regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative >> > statement. You should read it again. >> > >> > "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of >> the >> > exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been >> > subjected to because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of >> > Abhik's off list email to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's >> > language betrays an >> > unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not >> > exactly exemplars of liberality and tolerance." >> > >> > Best >> > Iram >> > >> > emma d wrote: >> > > Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed >> > > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first >> > > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's >> approval" >> > > thingy disappear then! Emma >> > > >> > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* < iram at sarai.net >> > > > >> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > Dear list members, >> > > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements >> > regrading >> > > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader >> > list >> > > is a >> > > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the >> challenge >> > > lies - >> > > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 >> people) >> >> > > exercise >> > > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be >> > remembered by the >> > > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who >> > browse our >> > > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member >> > from writing >> > > what they like but its a personal request - please think >> > before you >> > > click the send button. >> > > Best >> > > Iram >> > > (co - member of reader-list) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > emma d wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the >> > > outrageously >> > > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to >> condone >> > > Abhik's >> > > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a >> > background he >> > > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A >> > pseudo >> > > like >> > > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have >> > more >> > > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! >> > > > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > >> > > > > > with subscribe in the >> > > subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From t.ray at vsnl.com Fri Mar 2 07:05:53 2007 From: t.ray at vsnl.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:35:53 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response] References: <45E73B06.4010504@sarai.net> Message-ID: <001501c75c6b$241f0fe0$ba00a8c0@Tapas> Shuddha, I would love to know where those quotes are from. You really do take the cake, though not in the way someone ... I think it was Emma D (or was it E or F?) ... said you did. That is a most enjoyable post, and not the least because of the inside stuff from Shobhabajar. (For those who are not familiar with Calcutta, Shobhabajar is the metro railway stop at which one would have to get off if one wanted to meet Shuddha's dignified pimps, for whatever purpose.) ... I can hear some people hiss on the sidelines: "See! The Bong pseudosecularist starts drooling the moment someone says "pimp"!" Having said that, I must take issue with you for appropriating all the pimply (I mean pimp-ly, not zitty) dignity for us Bongs. Going by his name, Gomes could very well be an Anglo-Indian or Goanese individual. If that were indeed the case, pimps of the Anglo-Indian community or those from the Konkan coast (that's where Goa is, isn't it?), as the case might be, would be justified in feeling aggrieved. We wouldn't want to hurt their feelings, would we? In case anyone has any doubts about my motive for standing up for Anglo-Indian and Konkanese pimps, let me confess that I just want to demonstrate my broadmindedness (not in the sense in which "BM couples" or "broadminded couples" are said to do). This comes naturally to pseudosecularists who wear their pseudosecularism and assorted liberalisms on their sleeves. Tapas > Dear Emma, Iram, Rahul, Tapas, Anjalika, Dinesh, Aman (and everyone else) > > Now this is really getting interesting. :) > > In fact far more interesting than what was going on when Vedavati and > Abhik were trading charges. > > The question of dignity is actually worth a real discussion, so maybe we > could get down to it one of these days, and while we are at it we should > also talk about robustly multi-coloured categories such as humiliation. > > I am in complete agreement with Emma D when she says that "even pimps > have more dignity than certain bong men" and I am including myself in > the category of the bong man, once more, in agreement with her when she > ends the above statement by saying 'like shuddha'. > > One cannot escape what in bengali we call 'bongshodosh' (the misfortune > of our descent, to which I could add the curse, or mixed blessing, or > 'bad luck hi kharab hai' - of one's gonads, though it appears that > surgery and modern medicine bring hope to many, especially to those > nominally XY chromosomed individuals made melancholic by the misfortune > of inappropriate gendering) > > So, some pimps have a great deal of dignity. Certainly. > > But let's make things a little more precise and complicated at the same > time. Some bong men (not all, some) may have as much dignity as your > common or garden pimp, and an insignificant few may in fact have more > dignity than the average pimp. It's incredible, I know, but it has been > known to happen. I have in fact met one or two incredibly dignified, > refined, erudite, and slightly mad, very sad, bong men in my life. (And > none of them are now or ever have been, relatives of mine. Dignity is > probably a recessive gene in the case of my extended lineage and kinship > network.) > > This is also further complicated by the fact that there are several > pimps who also happen to be bong men. I mean, you dont even need to > stroll down Shonagachi to know that gentlemen who might answer to names > such as 'Tokai','Jhonta' 'Deb-dulal', 'Mortaza moshai' 'Gomes' and 'Boro > Photik' are bong, men and pimps. They smell of kashundi, parshey maacch > and make their money as only they know best. Some, maybe, such as > Deb-dulal, Mortaza Moshai, Gomes, and Boro Photik are honourable and > dignified pimps, 'oder baajaare naam-daak acchey', others, such as Tokai > and Jhonta are what we would call 'cchoto-lpk, raskel (rascal) and luj > (loose) character'. Mairi bolcchi, Dignity comes striated, even when it > visits pimps. > > It is not yet established as to whether all bong women have as much > dignity as pimps or bong men. It is also not yet known as to whether > bong women who pimp retain as much dignity as others who don't, and > other men who do. This is a matter of ongoing investigation. Being a > bong man, I am possesed about an ontological certainty about myself and > others like me. But I cannot speak with any certainty about bong women. > Perhaps the bong women on this list might like to undertake their own > self-reflexive auto-critique. > > But let me not stray. Once again, some women sex workers in genteel semi > retirement who do not get to the position of being the 'madam' or > 'mashi' sometimes have to make do with being 'ejent (agent)' or 'didi' > or dalal, or pimp. This happens, and some, who might be called 'Komola', > or 'Mrinmoyee' (Minu) or 'Fatema-bi', or 'Agnes' might be actually women > possessed of great honour and dignity. On the other hand, it is quite > likely that others who might have names like 'Elokeshi' and 'Paanchi' > might have cheated a lot of sex workers (their own erstwhile comrades) > of their due. > > "Kono shala maagi ba dalaaler maathaye morjaadar hishep aanka > nei.Maathai tilok kaata bamun-thakur hoyto-ba morjaadar naap ta nitey > ebong ditey paaren, kintu aamar moto dalaaler eto baar ekhono baareni je > haamesha inchi tape niye nijer morjadar aaga-paanch-tola doirgho-prosto > nepey berabo. Shomoye'r boro obhab, memshayeb, boro shonkot. Aar ta > cchara, koto jinisher hisheb jey ekhono baaki." > > yani-ke > > "Kisi raand ya bharue ke maathe par uske maryada ka naap-tol likha nahin > hota. Maathey pe tilak kaat kar maryaada ko pongey-pandit naapte honge, > lekin mujh jaise bharuey ki itni aukaad nahin hai ki mai hamesha inchi > tape leke apney maryaade ke lambaai-chaaurai ke maujuda haal ka khabar > detey firun. Time-time ki baat hoti hai mem'saab, aur hamaare paas time > kam hai. Aur bahut kuch baaki hai naapne ko. " > > Apologies, readers, for the untranslatable, which must remain more or > less as such. But since ethnic references have come into play with such > full force, I thought it might be interesting to ask how we gloss > 'pimping' which describes an activity in relation to 'bong' which > describes the accident of birth, language and to some extent, geography. > I can see quite easily how one can put 'pimps' with 'commission agent' > or 'negotiator' or 'adjuster' or even 'accountant' or 'public relations > professional' in one sub set and 'mallus' with 'bongs' and 'uplas' in > another. One is a vocation or profession or calling, and the other is a > description of the language one speaks, or the cultural matrix one > inherits, embedded in, or trapped by. > > But the mathematics that allows us to construct a calculation that > involves both 'bongs' and 'pimps' as indices that can be read off each > other in terms of the intensity of dignity is somehow opaque to me. I > want to understand how we can actually conduct this operation, how > 'pimp' and 'bong' can be made to stand together as terms with > interchangable valence in the same equation. (How else would we be able > to make a quantitative comparison between these two vis a vis that > enigmatic third term - 'dignity') > > Instinctively, I have a sense that what Emma D is saying is right. "Even > pimps have more dignity than certain bong men". But I want to understand > what makes this sentence so accurate. I really do. I will be grateful if > Emma d or anyone else, can shed light on this matter. > > warm regards, benche thakun, I hope none of you will take amiss my > sincere effort to understand all that is being said, by everyone > concerned. > > Shuddha, > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Mar 2 07:16:49 2007 From: anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk (Anjalika Sagar) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 01:46:49 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response] In-Reply-To: <45E73B06.4010504@sarai.net> References: <45E73B06.4010504@sarai.net> Message-ID: <45E78209.4020208@blueyonder.co.uk> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070302/54865884/attachment.html From ravig64 at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 07:34:03 2007 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:34:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Butchering Trees and Pavements Message-ID: Dear all, As I spend another morning today trying to gather evidence of the trees , over 2500, marked for felling, I find I cannot shoot for more than some minutes. To see fully grown trees, of all shades and varieties, the type you cannot find in Delhi any more, some over 50 years old marked for felling in yellow ink and numbers etched onto the tree trunks, is more than I can accept. Behind the construction boards of the HSBS ( High Capacity Bus Service) lies a trail of disaster. Uprooted giants of trees, some axed, some bleeding at the roots, mercilessly felled. I know of no other city where 8 land higways criss cross it. ( From exisiting 6 lane this will now become 8 lane with the new service). Cleave it through and hack all that in its way. And a citenzery whcih is so quiet that it took a week to even get the media to do a story on it. There is such silence and such uncertainty. The isolation which can be afforded through the window panes of cars, where we sit an decide if we can afford to raise our voices or maybe this will go away and no one will know. Like it never hapenned. My friend the photo printer told me "dil dehal jaata hai jab mei us sarak per jaato hoon. Kitne bade and sunder per, aise hi kaat denge.?" My heart stops when I go on that road, will such big and majestic trees just be cut? Another friend who lives in Saket, refuses to look out of the taxi window, since it upsets her so much. Like it does me. Whose consensus was sought. When this project was approved. Who made the decision that the road is needed. Who saw the traffic studies? Who justified it. Who executed it? How is the consensus made? How are such decisions taken? Someone's pet project. Someone well respected in the city. Someone who has always talked about pedisterisation and cycle ways. Now that very project stripping the city of trees, and pavements. For a high capacity bus! In the last post I wrote about my inability to act. I wonder if it is the larger inability to act. How we seem to have said 'yes' without saying anything. How we maybe are caught up in our not wanting to neogotiate our little gains or how we justify them to ourselves (the city needs better transport! - read as "I like my car!"). There is not point thinking and pontificating if we are not prepared to participate in what is going on. The city has been changing as I write. By April end, the city would have lost over 3000 of its most glorious and old trees. Then we can get to work on time. I suppose - to a better future! ravi agarwal From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 07:57:16 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Taraprakash) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:57:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Butchering Trees and Pavements References: Message-ID: <00f601c75c72$4ed27130$0201a8c0@IBM61525879EE4> It's really sad. What are these high capacity buses by the way? The same low floor buses supposed to be convenient for the physically challenged? If yes, they are simply white elephants. till the time I was in Delhi last year, they plied on a route hardly used by the supposed beneficiaries. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ravi Agarwal" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:34 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Butchering Trees and Pavements > Dear all, > > As I spend another morning today trying to gather evidence of the > trees , over 2500, marked for felling, I find I cannot shoot for more > than some minutes. To see fully grown trees, of all shades and > varieties, the type you cannot find in Delhi any more, some over 50 > years old marked for felling in yellow ink and numbers etched onto > the tree trunks, is more than I can accept. Behind the construction > boards of the HSBS ( High Capacity Bus Service) lies a trail of > disaster. Uprooted giants of trees, some axed, some bleeding at the > roots, mercilessly felled. > > I know of no other city where 8 land higways criss cross it. ( From > exisiting 6 lane this will now become 8 lane with the new service). > Cleave it through and hack all that in its way. And a citenzery whcih > is so quiet that it took a week to even get the media to do a story > on it. There is such silence and such uncertainty. The isolation > which can be afforded through the window panes of cars, where we sit > an decide if we can afford to raise our voices or maybe this will go > away and no one will know. Like it never hapenned. > > My friend the photo printer told me "dil dehal jaata hai jab mei us > sarak per jaato hoon. Kitne bade and sunder per, aise hi kaat > denge.?" My heart stops when I go on that road, will such big and > majestic trees just be cut? Another friend who lives in Saket, > refuses to look out of the taxi window, since it upsets her so much. > Like it does me. > > Whose consensus was sought. When this project was approved. Who made > the decision that the road is needed. Who saw the traffic studies? > Who justified it. Who executed it? How is the consensus made? How are > such decisions taken? Someone's pet project. Someone well respected > in the city. Someone who has always talked about pedisterisation and > cycle ways. Now that very project stripping the city of trees, and > pavements. For a high capacity bus! > > In the last post I wrote about my inability to act. I wonder if it is > the larger inability to act. How we seem to have said 'yes' without > saying anything. How we maybe are caught up in our not wanting to > neogotiate our little gains or how we justify them to ourselves (the > city needs better transport! - read as "I like my car!"). There is > not point thinking and pontificating if we are not prepared to > participate in what is going on. The city has been changing as I > write. By April end, the city would have lost over 3000 of its most > glorious and old trees. Then we can get to work on time. I suppose - > to a better future! > > ravi agarwal > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ravig64 at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 08:37:46 2007 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:37:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Butchering Trees and Pavements In-Reply-To: <00f601c75c72$4ed27130$0201a8c0@IBM61525879EE4> References: <00f601c75c72$4ed27130$0201a8c0@IBM61525879EE4> Message-ID: <453C18C2-CD91-47EF-8A63-62AB50185053@gmail.com> Dear Taraprakash, Long buses which swivel in the middle I think! Maybe some of them also can lower for those who cannot alight otherwise. All made by Volvo i think. But that is also the issue. No one really knows. No one has been told. Till a couple of months back they needed 'no new roads.' But then that could not be really true. So then what was told was untrue. All deadlines are now on high speed. There is the Commonwealth Games to cater to. What would have taken long earlier, is now only a matter of months. Budget constraints are non existent. All contraversial projects are now "full speed ahead." Yamuna riverfront clearance of settlements, metro through the ridge, tunnel road under Humayun's tomb, High Capacity Bus through the city, Commonwealth village on the riverbed, at least two new river bridges.....the list is endless. The last time such massive changes (actually on a much smaller scale compared to now) was in the mid seventies for the Asian Games. Now the Commonwealth Games. Who can question 'national pride?!' ravi On Mar 2, 2007, at 7:57 AM, Taraprakash wrote: It's really sad. What are these high capacity buses by the way? The same low floor buses supposed to be convenient for the physically challenged? If yes, they are simply white elephants. till the time I was in Delhi last year, they plied on a route hardly used by the supposed beneficiaries. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ravi Agarwal" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:34 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Butchering Trees and Pavements > Dear all, > > As I spend another morning today trying to gather evidence of the > trees , over 2500, marked for felling, I find I cannot shoot for more > than some minutes. To see fully grown trees, of all shades and > varieties, the type you cannot find in Delhi any more, some over 50 > years old marked for felling in yellow ink and numbers etched onto > the tree trunks, is more than I can accept. Behind the construction > boards of the HSBS ( High Capacity Bus Service) lies a trail of > disaster. Uprooted giants of trees, some axed, some bleeding at the > roots, mercilessly felled. > > I know of no other city where 8 land higways criss cross it. ( From > exisiting 6 lane this will now become 8 lane with the new service). > Cleave it through and hack all that in its way. And a citenzery whcih > is so quiet that it took a week to even get the media to do a story > on it. There is such silence and such uncertainty. The isolation > which can be afforded through the window panes of cars, where we sit > an decide if we can afford to raise our voices or maybe this will go > away and no one will know. Like it never hapenned. > > My friend the photo printer told me "dil dehal jaata hai jab mei us > sarak per jaato hoon. Kitne bade and sunder per, aise hi kaat > denge.?" My heart stops when I go on that road, will such big and > majestic trees just be cut? Another friend who lives in Saket, > refuses to look out of the taxi window, since it upsets her so much. > Like it does me. > > Whose consensus was sought. When this project was approved. Who made > the decision that the road is needed. Who saw the traffic studies? > Who justified it. Who executed it? How is the consensus made? How are > such decisions taken? Someone's pet project. Someone well respected > in the city. Someone who has always talked about pedisterisation and > cycle ways. Now that very project stripping the city of trees, and > pavements. For a high capacity bus! > > In the last post I wrote about my inability to act. I wonder if it is > the larger inability to act. How we seem to have said 'yes' without > saying anything. How we maybe are caught up in our not wanting to > neogotiate our little gains or how we justify them to ourselves (the > city needs better transport! - read as "I like my car!"). There is > not point thinking and pontificating if we are not prepared to > participate in what is going on. The city has been changing as I > write. By April end, the city would have lost over 3000 of its most > glorious and old trees. Then we can get to work on time. I suppose - > to a better future! > > ravi agarwal > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Fri Mar 2 10:43:52 2007 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] On Abhik-Vedavati controversey In-Reply-To: <45E78209.4020208@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <427268.73650.qm@web60623.mail.yahoo.com> Have been silently reading these mails with intellectual as well as voyeuristic interest. While understanding the insult felt by Vedavati by the personal manner in which the question was addressed to her by Abhik and expressing my sincere condemnation... i think the question if addressed more generally is still valid and parliamentary... i.e. Whether there is a connection between sexual deprivation/repression and communal/fascist mindset. Is it a huge coincidence that various brands of fundamentalism/fascism seem to have a problem with sexuality/sex while being xenophobic at the same time? Is it then a bad question to ask? Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From nityajacob at yahoo.com Fri Mar 2 09:53:17 2007 From: nityajacob at yahoo.com (Nitya Jacob) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:23:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response] Message-ID: <549891.21716.qm@web30810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I guess Ms V J will be laughing all the way to Mandir. After all, she started this joke with an OFFENSIVE blog and look where its gone - to the Bongs. Its going bong bong, bongie, wongie, wonky. Time to get back on the rails guys - the Sangh is on its the upswing. all it takes is a woman in (khaki) knickers to set bongs off. Meanwhile what of the original, the one and only, Ms VJ. Like all our culprits and her shitty blog, she has proven to be a fake as well. N ----- Original Message ---- From: Anjalika Sagar To: shuddha at sarai.net Cc: sarai list Sent: Friday, March 2, 2007 7:16:49 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response] :-D :-D :-D Bong man is such a funny term of abuse ... kind of affectionate or am I wrong ? Nothing then to do with Bongs, i.e water pipes or buckets, only Gonads yes or no ? I will use it to irritate Bengali friends ... ! Anymore national treasures ? Bests anj Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear Emma, Iram, Rahul, Tapas, Anjalika, Dinesh, Aman (and everyone else) Now this is really getting interesting. :) In fact far more interesting than what was going on when Vedavati and Abhik were trading charges. The question of dignity is actually worth a real discussion, so maybe we could get down to it one of these days, and while we are at it we should also talk about robustly multi-coloured categories such as humiliation. I am in complete agreement with Emma D when she says that "even pimps have more dignity than certain bong men" and I am including myself in the category of the bong man, once more, in agreement with her when she ends the above statement by saying 'like shuddha'. One cannot escape what in bengali we call 'bongshodosh' (the misfortune of our descent, to which I could add the curse, or mixed blessing, or 'bad luck hi kharab hai' - of one's gonads, though it appears that surgery and modern medicine bring hope to many, especially to those nominally XY chromosomed individuals made melancholic by the misfortune of inappropriate gendering) So, some pimps have a great deal of dignity. Certainly. But let's make things a little more precise and complicated at the same time. Some bong men (not all, some) may have as much dignity as your common or garden pimp, and an insignificant few may in fact have more dignity than the average pimp. It's incredible, I know, but it has been known to happen. I have in fact met one or two incredibly dignified, refined, erudite, and slightly mad, very sad, bong men in my life. (And none of them are now or ever have been, relatives of mine. Dignity is probably a recessive gene in the case of my extended lineage and kinship network.) This is also further complicated by the fact that there are several pimps who also happen to be bong men. I mean, you dont even need to stroll down Shonagachi to know that gentlemen who might answer to names such as 'Tokai','Jhonta' 'Deb-dulal', 'Mortaza moshai' 'Gomes' and 'Boro Photik' are bong, men and pimps. They smell of kashundi, parshey maacch and make their money as only they know best. Some, maybe, such as Deb-dulal, Mortaza Moshai, Gomes, and Boro Photik are honourable and dignified pimps, 'oder baajaare naam-daak acchey', others, such as Tokai and Jhonta are what we would call 'cchoto-lpk, raskel (rascal) and luj (loose) character'. Mairi bolcchi, Dignity comes striated, even when it visits pimps. It is not yet established as to whether all bong women have as much dignity as pimps or bong men. It is also not yet known as to whether bong women who pimp retain as much dignity as others who don't, and other men who do. This is a matter of ongoing investigation. Being a bong man, I am possesed about an ontological certainty about myself and others like me. But I cannot speak with any certainty about bong women. Perhaps the bong women on this list might like to undertake their own self-reflexive auto-critique. But let me not stray. Once again, some women sex workers in genteel semi retirement who do not get to the position of being the 'madam' or 'mashi' sometimes have to make do with being 'ejent (agent)' or 'didi' or dalal, or pimp. This happens, and some, who might be called 'Komola', or 'Mrinmoyee' (Minu) or 'Fatema-bi', or 'Agnes' might be actually women possessed of great honour and dignity. On the other hand, it is quite likely that others who might have names like 'Elokeshi' and 'Paanchi' might have cheated a lot of sex workers (their own erstwhile comrades) of their due. "Kono shala maagi ba dalaaler maathaye morjaadar hishep aanka nei.Maathai tilok kaata bamun-thakur hoyto-ba morjaadar naap ta nitey ebong ditey paaren, kintu aamar moto dalaaler eto baar ekhono baareni je haamesha inchi tape niye nijer morjadar aaga-paanch-tola doirgho-prosto nepey berabo. Shomoye'r boro obhab, memshayeb, boro shonkot. Aar ta cchara, koto jinisher hisheb jey ekhono baaki." yani-ke "Kisi raand ya bharue ke maathe par uske maryada ka naap-tol likha nahin hota. Maathey pe tilak kaat kar maryaada ko pongey-pandit naapte honge, lekin mujh jaise bharuey ki itni aukaad nahin hai ki mai hamesha inchi tape leke apney maryaade ke lambaai-chaaurai ke maujuda haal ka khabar detey firun. Time-time ki baat hoti hai mem'saab, aur hamaare paas time kam hai. Aur bahut kuch baaki hai naapne ko. " Apologies, readers, for the untranslatable, which must remain more or less as such. But since ethnic references have come into play with such full force, I thought it might be interesting to ask how we gloss 'pimping' which describes an activity in relation to 'bong' which describes the accident of birth, language and to some extent, geography. I can see quite easily how one can put 'pimps' with 'commission agent' or 'negotiator' or 'adjuster' or even 'accountant' or 'public relations professional' in one sub set and 'mallus' with 'bongs' and 'uplas' in another. One is a vocation or profession or calling, and the other is a description of the language one speaks, or the cultural matrix one inherits, embedded in, or trapped by. But the mathematics that allows us to construct a calculation that involves both 'bongs' and 'pimps' as indices that can be read off each other in terms of the intensity of dignity is somehow opaque to me. I want to understand how we can actually conduct this operation, how 'pimp' and 'bong' can be made to stand together as terms with interchangable valence in the same equation. (How else would we be able to make a quantitative comparison between these two vis a vis that enigmatic third term - 'dignity') Instinctively, I have a sense that what Emma D is saying is right. "Even pimps have more dignity than certain bong men". But I want to understand what makes this sentence so accurate. I really do. I will be grateful if Emma d or anyone else, can shed light on this matter. warm regards, benche thakun, I hope none of you will take amiss my sincere effort to understand all that is being said, by everyone concerned. Shuddha, emma d wrote: Thought of what?! I still believe that even pimps have more dignity than certain Bong men like Shuddha! And, yes thanks for the "moderator" advice On 3/1/07, Iram Ghufran wrote: Dear Emma, You should have thought of that before you make statements like - "Even pimps have more dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you!" on a public list. Anyway, I do hope your anxieties regarding list 'moderation' are satisfied. Best Iram emma d wrote: Get a life man! Is there any point in going on and on about Shuddha's response to Jogis' posting! Seriously, get a life! Besides, I certainly believe you ought to re-read Shuddha's response entirely again, wherein he expresses how he "understands" that weirdo's response to Jogi's crazed posting! The end? Amen? On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* > wrote: Emma, I think you are confusing issues. A) "don't you have anyone to fuck" is not a nice thing to say to anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by Abhik. I chose not to comment on those. B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to TECHNICAL glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content of the mail (unless there are attachments) I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been sent on this list before and I will forward them to you in a separate mail. C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative statement. You should read it again. "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of the exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been subjected to because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of Abhik's off list email to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's language betrays an unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not exactly exemplars of liberality and tolerance." Best Iram emma d wrote: > Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's approval" > thingy disappear then! Emma > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* < iram at sarai.net >> > wrote: > > Dear list members, > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements regrading > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader list > is a > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the challenge > lies - > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) > exercise > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be remembered by the > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who browse our > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member from writing > what they like but its a personal request - please think before you > click the send button. > Best > Iram > (co - member of reader-list) > > > > > emma d wrote: > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the > outrageously > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone > Abhik's > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo > like > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070301/e9e47a8b/attachment.html From sadan at sarai.net Fri Mar 2 16:08:51 2007 From: sadan at sarai.net (Sadan) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 05:38:51 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Sarai,CSDS Student Stipends 2007 Message-ID: <45E7FEBB.7060403@sarai.net> Dear all, Each year Sarai gives stipends to research scholars who are enrolled in academic institutions ( i.e. university and research institutes) from various parts of India. Apart from financial support, selected researchers get an opportunity to participate in three workshops, receive intellectual feedback on their ongoing research, interact with a wider community of academicians and practitioners ( working on the urban) and also get reading material for reference. We have now concluded our selection process for the Sarai,CSDS student stipend awards for 2007. We received a large number of proposals in English and Hindi from all over the country. We were delighted by a good number of very high quality research proposals received in response to our call. Of these, 20 proposals were finally selected for support. A list of selected stipendiaries are given below. Thanks Sadan Jha. Sarai,CSDS Student Stipendship Programme. List Of Selected Student Stipends For Research On The City 2007 1. Sangeeta Chandu Thosar, Pune, “Political Leadership of Women in Pune City: A Dalit Feminist study (1995-2007)”, M.Phil. Political Science, Yashwantrao Chavan Marathwada Open University, Nasik. rajsangitta at yahoo.co.in 2. Ipsita Sahu, Delhi, “Negotiating Boundaries: A comparative study of the Multiplex culture in the urban and the sub-urban space and the role of the multiplex in dissolving the urban and sub-urban boundary”, M.A. Art and Aesthetics, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi. ipssahu18 at gmail.com 3. Agniv Ghosh, Delhi, “Nabababus And Their New Calcutta”, M.A. Bengali Literature, Delhi University, Delhi. agnivghosh at gmail.com, agnivghosh at yahoo.com 4. Rohit Parkash, Patna, “Kalidas Rangalaya: Patna Ka Ek Sanskritik Kendra”, M.A. History, Patna University, Patna. 5. Alice Samson, Hyderabad, “Story of the Second Hand Book Stalls of Hyderabad”, M.A. English, CIEFL, Hyderabad. alicesamson at gmail.com 6.Bhavya Dore and Kartik Nair, Delhi, “Appu Ghar : Amusement Anxieties and the city”, M.A. Sociology, and English, Delhi University, Delhi.bhavya.dore at gmail.com dore_me at hotmail.com 7. Sreedeep Bhattacharya, Delhi, “Pornography in Urban India: from porn Sphere to mainstream from footpath to websites”, M.Phil, Sociology, J.N.U, Delhi, awbaaddho at yahoo.co.in 8. Meera Baindur, Sreeja K.G. and Sowjanya R. Peddi, Bangalore, “The 'Lake' As Urban Public Space”, Ph.D. National Institute of Advanced Studies. IISc. Bangalore.mansilight at gmail.com, kg.sreeja at gmail.com sowjanya.peddi at gmail.com 9. Sutapa Ghosh, Mumbai, “Modernist Planning”, Ph.D. Department of Humainities and Social Sciences, I.I.T, Bombay. suto8ph at yahoo.com, sutapa at hss.iitb.ac.in 10. Mayuri Samant, Delhi, “Caste Violence in Urban Spaces: A Study of Narratives”, M.Phil. Sociology, Delhi University. mayurisamant at yahoo.com 11. Naveen Ramamurthy Kanalu, Delhi, “Pirla Panduga: Weaver Migration and the Muharram practices in the Deccan”, M.A. Economics, Delhi University, Delhi. naveenkanal at gmail.com 12. Priyanka Gupta, Kolkata, “Graffiti and Kolkatascape; a discourse of conflicting rights, class and citizenship”, M.A. English, Jadavpur University, Kolkata.estrangedstrings at gmail.com 13. Vineet Kumar, Delhi, "Niji Television Chennalon main Bhasha evam Sanskritik Nimittiyan", Ph.D. Hindi Literature, Delhi University. vineet_du at yahoo.com 14. Akhil Katyal, Bareilly, “Queer Urban Culture(s): The Case of New Delhi”, M.A. English, Delhi University. akhilkatyal at rediffmail.com 15. Abhishek Kumar Gupta, Delhi, “Bahati Ganga Main Ek Jindagi”, M.A. Museology, Banaras Hindu University, Varanasi. abhishek2nmi at gmail.com 16. D.Karthikeyan, Chennai, “Music From The Margins: Gaana Songs As A Subaltern Phenomenon”, P.G. Diploma in Mass Communication, Asian School of Journalism, Chennai, Karthik.guevara at gmail.com 17. Geetanjoy Sahu, Bangalore, “Urban Environmental Governance”, Ph.D. Institute for Social and Economic Change, Bangalore, geetanjoy at rediffmail.com, geetanjoy at isec.ac.in 18. Hijam Eskoni Devi, Manipur, “Relevance of Traditional Institution in Urban Governance: A Case study of Nupi Keithel, Imphal”.M.A. Urban Design. CEPT. Ahmedabad. ehijam at yahoo.com 19. Renu P Cherian, Kottayam, “The ‘Space of Charisma’ in a City”, M.Phil. School of Social Sciences, Mahatma Gandhi University. Kottayam. renucherianp at gmail.com 20. Sumalatha.B.S., Trivandrum, “Space for brokering branches in Kerala townships: A casual link with urbanisation”, M.Phil Economics. Centre for Development Studies, Trivandrum. suma at cds.ac.in _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From satishrsv at yahoo.com Fri Mar 2 12:21:36 2007 From: satishrsv at yahoo.com (satish kumar) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:51:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response] In-Reply-To: <45E78209.4020208@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <735080.9864.qm@web58710.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hi I have been following this list for a very long time. The recents slurs and counter slurs have intrigued me. Well guys, I just want to say that people here are getting confused between the issue and the personal remarks. Do we have a problem with the issue or with the people in question. If we have a problem with the issue (The vedavati post) we should address it, which we haven't done. Vedavati definitely echoes the sentiments of millions of Indians. By getting personal we are ignoring the real issue, rather running away from it. Lets not get into mudslinging (I am loving it, exploring new things, hehehehe). Anyway I find it very childish. Happiness always Satish Anjalika Sagar wrote: :-D :-D :-D Bong man is such a funny term of abuse ... kind of affectionate or am I wrong ? Nothing then to do with Bongs, i.e water pipes or buckets, only Gonads yes or no ? I will use it to irritate Bengali friends ... ! Anymore national treasures ? Bests anj Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear Emma, Iram, Rahul, Tapas, Anjalika, Dinesh, Aman (and everyone else) Now this is really getting interesting. :) In fact far more interesting than what was going on when Vedavati and Abhik were trading charges. The question of dignity is actually worth a real discussion, so maybe we could get down to it one of these days, and while we are at it we should also talk about robustly multi-coloured categories such as humiliation. I am in complete agreement with Emma D when she says that "even pimps have more dignity than certain bong men" and I am including myself in the category of the bong man, once more, in agreement with her when she ends the above statement by saying 'like shuddha'. One cannot escape what in bengali we call 'bongshodosh' (the misfortune of our descent, to which I could add the curse, or mixed blessing, or 'bad luck hi kharab hai' - of one's gonads, though it appears that surgery and modern medicine bring hope to many, especially to those nominally XY chromosomed individuals made melancholic by the misfortune of inappropriate gendering) So, some pimps have a great deal of dignity. Certainly. But let's make things a little more precise and complicated at the same time. Some bong men (not all, some) may have as much dignity as your common or garden pimp, and an insignificant few may in fact have more dignity than the average pimp. It's incredible, I know, but it has been known to happen. I have in fact met one or two incredibly dignified, refined, erudite, and slightly mad, very sad, bong men in my life. (And none of them are now or ever have been, relatives of mine. Dignity is probably a recessive gene in the case of my extended lineage and kinship network.) This is also further complicated by the fact that there are several pimps who also happen to be bong men. I mean, you dont even need to stroll down Shonagachi to know that gentlemen who might answer to names such as 'Tokai','Jhonta' 'Deb-dulal', 'Mortaza moshai' 'Gomes' and 'Boro Photik' are bong, men and pimps. They smell of kashundi, parshey maacch and make their money as only they know best. Some, maybe, such as Deb-dulal, Mortaza Moshai, Gomes, and Boro Photik are honourable and dignified pimps, 'oder baajaare naam-daak acchey', others, such as Tokai and Jhonta are what we would call 'cchoto-lpk, raskel (rascal) and luj (loose) character'. Mairi bolcchi, Dignity comes striated, even when it visits pimps. It is not yet established as to whether all bong women have as much dignity as pimps or bong men. It is also not yet known as to whether bong women who pimp retain as much dignity as others who don't, and other men who do. This is a matter of ongoing investigation. Being a bong man, I am possesed about an ontological certainty about myself and others like me. But I cannot speak with any certainty about bong women. Perhaps the bong women on this list might like to undertake their own self-reflexive auto-critique. But let me not stray. Once again, some women sex workers in genteel semi retirement who do not get to the position of being the 'madam' or 'mashi' sometimes have to make do with being 'ejent (agent)' or 'didi' or dalal, or pimp. This happens, and some, who might be called 'Komola', or 'Mrinmoyee' (Minu) or 'Fatema-bi', or 'Agnes' might be actually women possessed of great honour and dignity. On the other hand, it is quite likely that others who might have names like 'Elokeshi' and 'Paanchi' might have cheated a lot of sex workers (their own erstwhile comrades) of their due. "Kono shala maagi ba dalaaler maathaye morjaadar hishep aanka nei.Maathai tilok kaata bamun-thakur hoyto-ba morjaadar naap ta nitey ebong ditey paaren, kintu aamar moto dalaaler eto baar ekhono baareni je haamesha inchi tape niye nijer morjadar aaga-paanch-tola doirgho-prosto nepey berabo. Shomoye'r boro obhab, memshayeb, boro shonkot. Aar ta cchara, koto jinisher hisheb jey ekhono baaki." yani-ke "Kisi raand ya bharue ke maathe par uske maryada ka naap-tol likha nahin hota. Maathey pe tilak kaat kar maryaada ko pongey-pandit naapte honge, lekin mujh jaise bharuey ki itni aukaad nahin hai ki mai hamesha inchi tape leke apney maryaade ke lambaai-chaaurai ke maujuda haal ka khabar detey firun. Time-time ki baat hoti hai mem'saab, aur hamaare paas time kam hai. Aur bahut kuch baaki hai naapne ko. " Apologies, readers, for the untranslatable, which must remain more or less as such. But since ethnic references have come into play with such full force, I thought it might be interesting to ask how we gloss 'pimping' which describes an activity in relation to 'bong' which describes the accident of birth, language and to some extent, geography. I can see quite easily how one can put 'pimps' with 'commission agent' or 'negotiator' or 'adjuster' or even 'accountant' or 'public relations professional' in one sub set and 'mallus' with 'bongs' and 'uplas' in another. One is a vocation or profession or calling, and the other is a description of the language one speaks, or the cultural matrix one inherits, embedded in, or trapped by. But the mathematics that allows us to construct a calculation that involves both 'bongs' and 'pimps' as indices that can be read off each other in terms of the intensity of dignity is somehow opaque to me. I want to understand how we can actually conduct this operation, how 'pimp' and 'bong' can be made to stand together as terms with interchangable valence in the same equation. (How else would we be able to make a quantitative comparison between these two vis a vis that enigmatic third term - 'dignity') Instinctively, I have a sense that what Emma D is saying is right. "Even pimps have more dignity than certain bong men". But I want to understand what makes this sentence so accurate. I really do. I will be grateful if Emma d or anyone else, can shed light on this matter. warm regards, benche thakun, I hope none of you will take amiss my sincere effort to understand all that is being said, by everyone concerned. Shuddha, emma d wrote: Thought of what?! I still believe that even pimps have more dignity than certain Bong men like Shuddha! And, yes thanks for the "moderator" advice On 3/1/07, Iram Ghufran wrote: Dear Emma, You should have thought of that before you make statements like - "Even pimps have more dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you!" on a public list. Anyway, I do hope your anxieties regarding list 'moderation' are satisfied. Best Iram emma d wrote: Get a life man! Is there any point in going on and on about Shuddha's response to Jogis' posting! Seriously, get a life! Besides, I certainly believe you ought to re-read Shuddha's response entirely again, wherein he expresses how he "understands" that weirdo's response to Jogi's crazed posting! The end? Amen? On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* > wrote: Emma, I think you are confusing issues. A) "don't you have anyone to fuck" is not a nice thing to say to anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by Abhik. I chose not to comment on those. B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to TECHNICAL glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content of the mail (unless there are attachments) I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been sent on this list before and I will forward them to you in a separate mail. C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative statement. You should read it again. "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of the exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been subjected to because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of Abhik's off list email to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's language betrays an unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not exactly exemplars of liberality and tolerance." Best Iram emma d wrote: > Dear Iram, It would have been nice if you could have expressed > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's approval" > thingy disappear then! Emma > > On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* < iram at sarai.net >> > wrote: > > Dear list members, > Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements regrading > other list members and communities on this forum. The reader list > is a > non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the challenge > lies - > How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200 people) > exercise > our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be remembered by the > archives of this list and read/ understood by people who browse our > public archives in future? No one can stop a list member from writing > what they like but its a personal request - please think before you > click the send button. > Best > Iram > (co - member of reader-list) > > > > > emma d wrote: > > > > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the > outrageously > > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to condone > Abhik's > > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a background he > > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A pseudo > like > > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have more > > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070301/bb0ab051/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 21:58:07 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Taraprakash) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:58:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] shuddhabratas response References: Message-ID: <01af01c75c1e$9e44ed00$0201a8c0@IBM61525879EE4> I am surprised that these mails are appearing days after the unfortunate mails which caused these responses were written. I had expressed my views as soon as I read Shuddha's mail. But the mail never reached the list. I wrote to Shuddha but the mail was never acknoledged. The mail is also pasted below today's message. I strongly object any generalization about a religion, caste or culture on the basis of an individual. Bongs should not have been dragged in to the mess. We could have avoided quoting the unfortunate words which occurred in Abhik's deplorable mail. I still maintain that bullying someone, even if off list, on an issue related to an issue raised on list, cannot be condoned. There could have been other ways of expressing displeasure. The following is my mail which has thus far failed to reach the list. Dear Shuddha and all. The message that started this mess was quite insensitive and unscientific in its approach. And so were some responses, like one that linked invention of the computer and scientific thinking to Christianity. Scientific development could be possible in the west only after the discovery of pagan (not Christian) learning, (renaissance). What we today consider facts caused many people their lives, people with scientific thinking were burnt alive as heretics. Even today in the name of the religion people are not being allowed contraceptives; there is a very influential lobby in the US trying to ban abortion. Religion is a big headache for gay and lesbian activists. I am not sure what do various scriptures say about above mentioned issues, but I don't practice any religion so know these religions from their practitioners only. It was done all in the name of religion: Crusades between Christians and Muslims, hanging and burning of the practitioners of (black magic) science, slave trade, colonization and suppression of various cultures and languages, Partition of India and violence related to it, demolition of the mosque and the riots thereafter, Massacre in Gujarat, and blogs giving a ranking as to which religion is more violent/terrorist. (My knowledge of history is really poor). I am not afraid of hell, dozakh or nark ... so I would like to say that religions should be banned from the public sphere. I know there can be some rude messages in response to my message but this is my opinion and I don't want any flaming even off list, even if Shuddha may not consider it violation of list etiquettes. I beg to differ from the following opinion/ruling of Shuddha "Abhik Samanta has written in his private capacity to Vedavati, and not on the list. So his post (no matter how objectionable and misogynist its content may be, which I think it is, even though I can understand his outrage at Vedavati's clear act of hate speech) is not technically a breach of list etiquette." It might give precedence to a wrong practice. There are better ways of expressing your displeasure, showering obcenities, even if off list, on a member for an issue related to the list, should not be condoned. Writing objectionable mails to the members off list in order not to violate the list etiquettes is, in my opinion, akin to american government kid-napping people and harassing them away from the main land so as to avoid the law of the land. I deplore such practice. I am quite new to this list so not sure what the Hindutva-vadis have been doing in the past, but if someone is insensitive again and again why not ban that person or tell that person that such mails will not be allowed on the list? it is technologically possible to ban specific IP addresses, or mails with specific words in the body. Then individuals can create message rules in their e mail clients to ban such individuals, IP addresses or mails. Shouting obscenities is the worst, rather no solution at all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" < shuddha at sarai.net> To: < reader-list at sarai.net> Cc: < abhikauliya at googlemail.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] vedavati thought you would like "wrap the body of muslim terrorist with pig skin" > Dear All, > > Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of the > exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been subjected to > because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of Abhik's off list email > to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's language betrays an > unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not exactly > exemplars of liberality and tolerance. > > This is not the first time that Vedavati Jogi has posted material on > this list that many on this list will find objectionable, just as there > are many others on this list who post material that Vedavati, and > perhaps some others on this list might have found objectionable. We have > had other instances such as this in the past with others as well. The > history of a list such as this grows to accommodate all manner of > eccentricities, and that is a sign of the health and robustness of a > free and open electronic space. It is in the nature of an unmoderated > (that is uncensored) list such as this, that some people will use the > platform to post material that many of us will consider reprehensible. > However, I would suggest that one way to respond to such provocation is > also to not necessarily dignify every such provocation with a response. > > Abhik Samanta has written in his private capacity to Vedavati, and not > on the list. So his post (no matter how objectionable and misogynist its > content may be, which I think it is, even though I can understand his > outrage at Vedavati's clear act of hate speech) is not technically a > breach of list etiquette. > > Vedavati's reply to Abhik which is addressed both to Abhik and to the > list is however a clear case of someone dragging what is essentially a > private exchange between two people on to the public space of the list. > Doing so,without asking for the permission of the concerned persons (and > there is no indication that she has asked Abhik) is a clear breach of > list eitquette. > > As a list member, I would advise all other list members (including > Vedavati, and Abhik) to try and refrain from blowing this issue out of > proportion. I personally find the sentiments that Vedavati is asking us > to consider (in the blog whose url she has forwarded) pathetic. > > I personally think that the real power of Hindutva-vadis lies in their > ability to hog public attention. Just ignore what is said by > Hindutva-vaids , be amused, at best by the sad level of the arguments > and the rhetoric that they put forward, and see how powerful your > unwillingness to pay attention to their agenda can be. > > I hope this puts an end to what might become an otherwise unpleasant > distraction on this busy list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> this shows your level mr. abhik! >> >> when you people curse hindutv forces especially rss & family, we should >> not >> react >> but when we talk about muslim terrorism you can't tolerate moreover you >> use >> such a dirty language ...is it democracy? is it secularism?is it >> liberalism? >> >> vedavati >> >> >>>From: "Abhik Samanta" < abhikauliya at googlemail.com> >>>To: vedavati < vrjogi at hotmail.com> >>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] vedavati thought you would like "wrap the body >>>of muslim terrorist with pig skin" >>>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:01:43 +0530 >>> >>>depraved and poor deprived girl wats the use of wasting time thinkin >>>shit >>>dont u have anyone to fuck -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20070301/7e90d35e/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 08:14:37 2007 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Taraprakash) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:14:37 +0530 Subject