From taraprakash at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 00:53:18 2008
From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:23:18 -0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash>

and how about the cadres of the so-called believers. Are they used for 
nonviolent activities? If I may use the believer's language, do you think 
"marayada purushottam" Ram will accept this kind of huliganism demonstrated 
in University of Delhi by those who use him for their divisive and political 
purposes?
One of the teachers in a university in MP was killed publicly by the same 
huligan "believers" and MP's ruling party BJP are doing their best to 
protect the assassin believer from law. Should Ram be proud of this?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
To: "Sadan Jha" <sadan at sarai.net>
Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History


> Dear Sadan,
>
> it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular "scholars" 
> with political connections for "educating the cadres for subversion of 
> democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in public life. 
> That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying jobs at 
> these two filling stations.
> Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to all 
> faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have undermined 
> the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent workers, later 
> politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in Nandigram or 
> Singur is well documented now.
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sadan Jha <sadan at sarai.net>
> Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm
> Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>
>> Dear All,
>> Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it
>> with you.
>> This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History
>> Department, D.U.
>> sadan.
>>
>>
>> H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department   H-ASIA
>> Frank Conlon <conlon at u.washington.edu>  to H-ASIA
>>
>>
>> H-ASIA
>> Feburary 25, 2008
>>
>> Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department
>> ************************************************************************
>> From: Frank Conlon
>>
>> Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts
>> regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP
>> (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized "student"
>> movement of the Hindu right in India.  Some of our readers will take
>> exception to that
>> description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel
>> comfortable writing it.
>>
>> Like everything else, the story requires some context, and,
>> remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a
>> Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the pretense
>> that it was built on the actual historical birthplace of the god Rama,
>> Rama once again figures prominently in the story.  Over the past
>> months there has been a resurgance  "Rama"publicity arising in part
>> out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of
>> India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels.
>> This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this
>> dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the seabed,
>> known as "the Rama Setu"  that has been credited in mythology to
>> Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem.
>>
>> In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and
>> hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever mix it
>> up in the ring of public affairs.  So, much has been written in the
>> past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the
>> preservation of the Rama legacy.
>>
>> Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate
>> press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year.
>> Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published" by the
>> Delhi University History Department--and attributed--erroneously--to
>> Professor Upinder
>> Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History.  The
>> fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime Minister
>> Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with the association
>> of her name with the protest.  The  "book" was in fact not a
>> publication at all, but a
>> collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent
>> course on
>> Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme.  The packet
>> included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled "Three Hundred
>> Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", which has
>> appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman edited by
>> Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking
>> collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative
>> Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991).  Of course, many
>> readers of H-ASIA are
>> familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's contributions to
>> the study of the history and culture of India including his wonderful
>> translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry.
>>
>> At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi
>> shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of that was
>> manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of
>> devout Hindus"  by the Delhi University History Department.
>>
>> An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may suffice
>> to give a flavor of the campaign.
>>
>> From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html
>> The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti  Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that
>> Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore
>> and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the
>> students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced
>> Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of Sita
>> so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all through under the
>> convenient cover of a folklore!
>> "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different versions
>> of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious intention has
>> become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition government].
>> Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, Shiksha Bharati and
>> Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues.
>>
>> "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) second
>> year course has included portions defaming and denigrating the
>> characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and projecting the
>> entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake."   and
>> it goes on to cite a
>> groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be
>> perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of
>> course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister.
>>
>> On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued
>> the following statement:
>>
>> DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI,
>> IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008
>>
>> 1.      A number of groups have organised protest and have raised
>> objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan,
>> titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on
>> Translation".  The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker (ed.)
>> The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford University
>> Press, 1999, pp. 131-60;  [this was an expanded version of a piece
>> that first
>> appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a
>> Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California
>> Press, 1991].  The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi
>> University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B.
>> A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several Colleges from
>> July 2006 onwards.
>> 2.      The sole purpose of this course is to create an awareness and
>> understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient
>> India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources.
>> Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes
>> readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil poets and
>> poetry, ancient
>> iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The
>> essay is
>> part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories,
>> characters, versions.'  It is accompanied by an excerpt from Iravati
>> Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. Supplementary readings
>> include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of
>> Valmiki: an epic of
>> ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English
>> translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly
>> introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana.
>>
>> 3.      The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours,
>> including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with
>> impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of languages
>> including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps without parallel. His
>> credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive knowledge
>> of ancient Indian literary traditions are incontestable. It is sad to
>> see his name and work
>> being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the article in
>> question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and variety
>> in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama within India
>> and across the world.
>>
>> 4.      The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the
>> readings for it went through the same procedure as all other courses
>> in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. The readings
>> have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the
>> other University courses, they are the product of a consultative
>> process involving many members of the University community. The
>> content and readings for this
>> course were discussed extensively among Department members and College
>> teachers, and were approved through the regular University procedures
>> in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of
>> Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which
>> include
>> teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest
>> statutory body on academic matters in the University.
>>
>> 5.      We would like to emphasize that there is no published
>> compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any other
>> member of the Department of History.  However, it has come to our
>> notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies of the
>> individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain
>> photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on
>> which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any
>> authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this collection of
>> photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' compiled
>> by her. There is in fact no book.
>>
>> 6.      When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not essential
>> that the course-designers, teachers, or students should agree with or
>> defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and
>> dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It may be
>> pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to
>> certain individuals should in no way be construed as mischievous or
>> slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or attempting
>> to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, religion,
>> tradition, or community.
>>
>> 7.      The aim of the course in question is to teach University
>> students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to analyze a
>> variety of source material academically, analytically, and without
>> embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the course
>> was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it is being
>> taught.
>>
>> ------
>> On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that Mayawati, the
>> Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be
>> banned.
>> (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under 
>> a headline:
>> "PM daughter in Ramayan row"
>>
>> New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has asked the
>> Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University history
>> students that allegedly contains  objectionable references to
>> characters in the Ramayan.
>>
>> Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil
>> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing, protested
>> in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text was part of a book
>> compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh.
>>
>> Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has,
>> however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her
>> students.
>> "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious
>> article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which
>> contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being linked to
>> the text," she told The Telegraph.
>>
>> Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not
>> yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was
>> motivated by concerns over law and order in her state."
>>
>> The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General
>> Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt
>> the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was seeking
>> a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the contents
>> of a
>> research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried
>> students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in
>> their exam.
>>
>> "If the article is taught, students will be expected to reproduce it
>> in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE WHAT IS
>> TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu students
>> will be
>> forced to write something they do not believe in," she said.
>>
>> The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor and the
>> head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's essay
>> from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely compiled a book
>> with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been
>> published but we have a copy," Sharma said."
>>
>> Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to
>> generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American
>> ploy  for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those who may
>> be offended by my editorial comment. FFC]
>>
>> To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a
>> group of
>> ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University History
>> department and physically manhandled the head of the department.  The
>> following is reproduced as received including a note from the Head of
>> Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from department
>> students.  It was forwarded by Professor Indrani Chatterjee.
>>
>> Dear Colleague,
>>
>> This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the
>> Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some damage
>> to the structure and gaining some mileage from it.  They partly
>> succeeded in their venture.  No injuries to anybody except  the glass
>> doors has been caused.  The other details you can see from the
>> students letter which follows.
>>
>> Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI
>>
>> DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS!
>> PUNISH THE CULPRITS!
>>
>> 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised
>> mob of
>> more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP
>> activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the School of
>> Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the Head of
>> the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they wished
>> to speak
>> to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II,
>> History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media
>> was present.
>> Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the  department
>> members, they began to ransack the department. Even without speaking
>> or giving a chance to the people present there from the department to
>> speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office of the
>> head of the
>> department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held him by
>> his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable
>> damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass panes,
>> damaging books, office files and other objects in the office was done
>> and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive
>> police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned them
>> of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It is clear
>> that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating violence
>> in the department and it was a planned action to create an atmosphere
>> of terror.
>>
>> This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police personnel
>> as well as the media. The media footage would clearly show all that
>> happened in the office of the head of the Department of History on the
>> 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not belonging to
>> the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the
>> Department of
>> History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty
>> members to change the curriculum of history which has been passed by
>> the due legal process of the University through the use of force
>> is a
>> clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. Freedom
>> of expression is a fundamental right of every individual and any
>> encroachment on the same is
>> not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are
>> seriously threatened.
>>
>> This  is an appeal from the students of history department  to
>> everyone in the University to raise their  voice against this
>> vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of
>> expression . We appeal to all students, staff   and teachers
>>
>> To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, Faculty
>> of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008.
>>
>> Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or
>> not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for
>> critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this
>> 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic department
>> at Delhi University.
>>
>> As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which
>> comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to
>> send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan
>> <rangarajan.mahesh at gmail.com> at Delhi University.  The postal address
>> for the head of the department is:
>> Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri,
>> Head,
>> Department of History,
>> Faculty of Social Science building,
>> University of Delhi,
>> Delhi-110007.
>>
>> I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend
>> some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode
>> offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our study
>> of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research in Europe,
>> America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian
>> concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we
>> frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the
>> "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity
>> politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob
>> action are small--but there are far too many university
>> administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who
>> wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of  ontroversy.
>> In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not quite as exotic
>> as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe.
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Frank F. Conlon
>> Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian
>>     Studies & Comparative Religion
>> University of Washington
>> Seattle, WA 98195-3560      USA
>> Co-editor, H-ASIA
>> President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online
>> Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online
>> ******************************************************************
>>        To post to  H-ASIA  simply send your message to:
>>                        <H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Sadan Jha
>> Assistant Professor,
>> Centre for Social Studies.
>> Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road.
>> Surat. Gujarat. India.
>> blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
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>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>> list
>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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From radhikarajen at vsnl.net  Sat Mar  1 12:54:28 2008
From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:24:28 +0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
	<012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash>
Message-ID: <e111bbc714318.47c94afc@vsnl.net>

Hi,
 simple fact is mazhab nahi sikhatha kisise bair karna, no faith teaches any believers to hate and indulge in violence.That exactly is the reason for the "leaders" to use the very faith or of no faith to encourage violence be it the communist faith in idealogies, or any faith of god.
The issue here is when the discussion is about the channelising the youth energy for the societal good, why brand them as ABVP or NSUI or DYFI where all the followers have been invariably "used" by their masters for their gains ?
  Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:53 am
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Sadan Jha <sadan at sarai.net>
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net

> and how about the cadres of the so-called believers. Are they used 
> for 
> nonviolent activities? If I may use the believer's language, do 
> you think 
> "marayada purushottam" Ram will accept this kind of huliganism 
> demonstrated 
> in University of Delhi by those who use him for their divisive and 
> political 
> purposes?
> One of the teachers in a university in MP was killed publicly by 
> the same 
> huligan "believers" and MP's ruling party BJP are doing their best 
> to 
> protect the assassin believer from law. Should Ram be proud of this?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> To: "Sadan Jha" <sadan at sarai.net>
> Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> 
> 
> > Dear Sadan,
> >
> > it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular 
> "scholars" 
> > with political connections for "educating the cadres for 
> subversion of 
> > democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in 
> public life. 
> > That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying 
> jobs at 
> > these two filling stations.
> > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to 
> all 
> > faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have 
> undermined 
> > the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent 
> workers, later 
> > politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in 
> Nandigram or 
> > Singur is well documented now.
> > Regards.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Sadan Jha <sadan at sarai.net>
> > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm
> > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> >> Dear All,
> >> Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it
> >> with you.
> >> This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History
> >> Department, D.U.
> >> sadan.
> >>
> >>
> >> H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department   
> H-ASIA
> >> Frank Conlon <conlon at u.washington.edu>  to H-ASIA
> >>
> >>
> >> H-ASIA
> >> Feburary 25, 2008
> >>
> >> Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department
> >> 
> ************************************************************************>> From: Frank Conlon
> >>
> >> Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts
> >> regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP
> >> (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized 
> "student">> movement of the Hindu right in India.  Some of our 
> readers will take
> >> exception to that
> >> description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel
> >> comfortable writing it.
> >>
> >> Like everything else, the story requires some context, and,
> >> remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a
> >> Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the 
> pretense>> that it was built on the actual historical birthplace 
> of the god Rama,
> >> Rama once again figures prominently in the story.  Over the past
> >> months there has been a resurgance  "Rama"publicity arising in part
> >> out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of
> >> India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels.
> >> This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this
> >> dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the 
> seabed,>> known as "the Rama Setu"  that has been credited in 
> mythology to
> >> Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem.
> >>
> >> In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and
> >> hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever 
> mix it
> >> up in the ring of public affairs.  So, much has been written in the
> >> past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the
> >> preservation of the Rama legacy.
> >>
> >> Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate
> >> press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year.
> >> Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published" 
> by the
> >> Delhi University History Department--and attributed--
> erroneously--to
> >> Professor Upinder
> >> Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History.  The
> >> fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime 
> Minister>> Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with 
> the association
> >> of her name with the protest.  The  "book" was in fact not a
> >> publication at all, but a
> >> collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent
> >> course on
> >> Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme.  The 
> packet>> included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled 
> "Three Hundred
> >> Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", 
> which has
> >> appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman 
> edited by
> >> Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking
> >> collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative
> >> Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991).  Of 
> course, many
> >> readers of H-ASIA are
> >> familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's 
> contributions to
> >> the study of the history and culture of India including his 
> wonderful>> translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry.
> >>
> >> At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi
> >> shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of 
> that was
> >> manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of
> >> devout Hindus"  by the Delhi University History Department.
> >>
> >> An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may 
> suffice>> to give a flavor of the campaign.
> >>
> >> From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html
> >> The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti  Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that
> >> Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore
> >> and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the
> >> students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced
> >> Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of 
> Sita>> so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all 
> through under the
> >> convenient cover of a folklore!
> >> "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different 
> versions>> of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious 
> intention has
> >> become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition 
> government].>> Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, 
> Shiksha Bharati and
> >> Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues.
> >>
> >> "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) 
> second>> year course has included portions defaming and 
> denigrating the
> >> characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and 
> projecting the
> >> entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake."  
> and
> >> it goes on to cite a
> >> groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be
> >> perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of
> >> course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister.
> >>
> >> On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued
> >> the following statement:
> >>
> >> DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI,
> >> IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008
> >>
> >> 1.      A number of groups have organised protest and have raised
> >> objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan,
> >> titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three 
> Thoughts on
> >> Translation".  The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker 
> (ed.)>> The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford 
> University>> Press, 1999, pp. 131-60;  [this was an expanded 
> version of a piece
> >> that first
> >> appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity 
> of a
> >> Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California
> >> Press, 1991].  The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi
> >> University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B.
> >> A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several 
> Colleges from
> >> July 2006 onwards.
> >> 2.      The sole purpose of this course is to create an 
> awareness and
> >> understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient
> >> India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources.
> >> Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes
> >> readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil 
> poets and
> >> poetry, ancient
> >> iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The
> >> essay is
> >> part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories,
> >> characters, versions.'  It is accompanied by an excerpt from 
> Iravati>> Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. 
> Supplementary readings
> >> include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of
> >> Valmiki: an epic of
> >> ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English
> >> translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly
> >> introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana.
> >>
> >> 3.      The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours,
> >> including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with
> >> impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of 
> languages>> including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps 
> without parallel. His
> >> credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive 
> knowledge>> of ancient Indian literary traditions are 
> incontestable. It is sad to
> >> see his name and work
> >> being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the 
> article in
> >> question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and 
> variety>> in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama 
> within India
> >> and across the world.
> >>
> >> 4.      The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the
> >> readings for it went through the same procedure as all other 
> courses>> in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. 
> The readings
> >> have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the
> >> other University courses, they are the product of a consultative
> >> process involving many members of the University community. The
> >> content and readings for this
> >> course were discussed extensively among Department members and 
> College>> teachers, and were approved through the regular 
> University procedures
> >> in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of
> >> Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which
> >> include
> >> teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest
> >> statutory body on academic matters in the University.
> >>
> >> 5.      We would like to emphasize that there is no published
> >> compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any 
> other>> member of the Department of History.  However, it has come 
> to our
> >> notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies 
> of the
> >> individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain
> >> photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on
> >> which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any
> >> authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this 
> collection of
> >> photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' 
> compiled>> by her. There is in fact no book.
> >>
> >> 6.      When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not 
> essential>> that the course-designers, teachers, or students 
> should agree with or
> >> defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and
> >> dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It 
> may be
> >> pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to
> >> certain individuals should in no way be construed as 
> mischievous or
> >> slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or 
> attempting>> to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, 
> religion,>> tradition, or community.
> >>
> >> 7.      The aim of the course in question is to teach University
> >> students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to 
> analyze a
> >> variety of source material academically, analytically, and without
> >> embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the 
> course>> was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it 
> is being
> >> taught.
> >>
> >> ------
> >> On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that 
> Mayawati, the
> >> Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be
> >> banned.
> >> 
> (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under 
> >> a headline:
> >> "PM daughter in Ramayan row"
> >>
> >> New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has 
> asked the
> >> Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University 
> history>> students that allegedly contains  objectionable 
> references to
> >> characters in the Ramayan.
> >>
> >> Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil
> >> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing, 
> protested>> in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text 
> was part of a book
> >> compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh.
> >>
> >> Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has,
> >> however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her
> >> students.
> >> "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious
> >> article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which
> >> contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being 
> linked to
> >> the text," she told The Telegraph.
> >>
> >> Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not
> >> yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was
> >> motivated by concerns over law and order in her state."
> >>
> >> The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General
> >> Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt
> >> the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was 
> seeking>> a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the 
> contents>> of a
> >> research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried
> >> students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in
> >> their exam.
> >>
> >> "If the article is taught, students will be expected to 
> reproduce it
> >> in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE 
> WHAT IS
> >> TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu 
> students>> will be
> >> forced to write something they do not believe in," she said.
> >>
> >> The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor 
> and the
> >> head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's 
> essay>> from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely 
> compiled a book
> >> with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been
> >> published but we have a copy," Sharma said."
> >>
> >> Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to
> >> generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American
> >> ploy  for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those 
> who may
> >> be offended by my editorial comment. FFC]
> >>
> >> To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a
> >> group of
> >> ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University 
> History>> department and physically manhandled the head of the 
> department.  The
> >> following is reproduced as received including a note from the 
> Head of
> >> Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from 
> department>> students.  It was forwarded by Professor Indrani 
> Chatterjee.>>
> >> Dear Colleague,
> >>
> >> This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the
> >> Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some 
> damage>> to the structure and gaining some mileage from it.  They 
> partly>> succeeded in their venture.  No injuries to anybody 
> except  the glass
> >> doors has been caused.  The other details you can see from the
> >> students letter which follows.
> >>
> >> Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI
> >>
> >> DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS!
> >> PUNISH THE CULPRITS!
> >>
> >> 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised
> >> mob of
> >> more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP
> >> activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the 
> School of
> >> Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the 
> Head of
> >> the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they 
> wished>> to speak
> >> to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II,
> >> History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media
> >> was present.
> >> Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the  department
> >> members, they began to ransack the department. Even without 
> speaking>> or giving a chance to the people present there from the 
> department to
> >> speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office 
> of the
> >> head of the
> >> department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held 
> him by
> >> his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable
> >> damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass 
> panes,>> damaging books, office files and other objects in the 
> office was done
> >> and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive
> >> police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned 
> them>> of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It 
> is clear
> >> that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating 
> violence>> in the department and it was a planned action to create 
> an atmosphere
> >> of terror.
> >>
> >> This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police 
> personnel>> as well as the media. The media footage would clearly 
> show all that
> >> happened in the office of the head of the Department of History 
> on the
> >> 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not 
> belonging to
> >> the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the
> >> Department of
> >> History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty
> >> members to change the curriculum of history which has been 
> passed by
> >> the due legal process of the University through the use of force
> >> is a
> >> clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. 
> Freedom>> of expression is a fundamental right of every individual 
> and any
> >> encroachment on the same is
> >> not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are
> >> seriously threatened.
> >>
> >> This  is an appeal from the students of history department  to
> >> everyone in the University to raise their  voice against this
> >> vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of
> >> expression . We appeal to all students, staff   and teachers
> >>
> >> To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, 
> Faculty>> of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008.
> >>
> >> Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or
> >> not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for
> >> critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this
> >> 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic 
> department>> at Delhi University.
> >>
> >> As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which
> >> comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to
> >> send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan
> >> <rangarajan.mahesh at gmail.com> at Delhi University.  The postal 
> address>> for the head of the department is:
> >> Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri,
> >> Head,
> >> Department of History,
> >> Faculty of Social Science building,
> >> University of Delhi,
> >> Delhi-110007.
> >>
> >> I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend
> >> some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode
> >> offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our 
> study>> of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research 
> in Europe,
> >> America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian
> >> concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we
> >> frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the
> >> "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity
> >> politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob
> >> action are small--but there are far too many university
> >> administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who
> >> wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of  
> ontroversy.>> In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not 
> quite as exotic
> >> as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe.
> >>
> >>
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> Frank F. Conlon
> >> Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian
> >>     Studies & Comparative Religion
> >> University of Washington
> >> Seattle, WA 98195-3560      USA
> >> Co-editor, H-ASIA
> >> President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online
> >> Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online
> >> ******************************************************************
> >>        To post to  H-ASIA  simply send your message to:
> >>                        <H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu>
> >>
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Sadan Jha
> >> Assistant Professor,
> >> Centre for Social Studies.
> >> Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road.
> >> Surat. Gujarat. India.
> >> blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> >> list
> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net 
> with 
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> 
> 
> 

From parthaekka at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 13:02:10 2008
From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 13:02:10 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <e111bbc714318.47c94afc@vsnl.net>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
	<012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash>
	<e111bbc714318.47c94afc@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <32144e990802292332v63013a5fp98bc465a6d6da760@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Radhikarajen,

The debate here is about freedom of speech and religion. What the ABVP goons
are doing is enforcing a point of view about religion without even knowing
what they are talking about.

Sure, we can go into the use of goons by political parties, and a host of
other issues, but those are all besides the point of this debate.

Rgds, Partha
...............................

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 12:54 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>  simple fact is mazhab nahi sikhatha kisise bair karna, no faith teaches
> any believers to hate and indulge in violence.That exactly is the reason
> for the "leaders" to use the very faith or of no faith to encourage violence
> be it the communist faith in idealogies, or any faith of god.
> The issue here is when the discussion is about the channelising the youth
> energy for the societal good, why brand them as ABVP or NSUI or DYFI where
> all the followers have been invariably "used" by their masters for their
> gains ?
>  Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com>
> Date: Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:53 am
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Sadan Jha <sadan at sarai.net>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>
> > and how about the cadres of the so-called believers. Are they used
> > for
> > nonviolent activities? If I may use the believer's language, do
> > you think
> > "marayada purushottam" Ram will accept this kind of huliganism
> > demonstrated
> > in University of Delhi by those who use him for their divisive and
> > political
> > purposes?
> > One of the teachers in a university in MP was killed publicly by
> > the same
> > huligan "believers" and MP's ruling party BJP are doing their best
> > to
> > protect the assassin believer from law. Should Ram be proud of this?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > To: "Sadan Jha" <sadan at sarai.net>
> > Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> >
> >
> > > Dear Sadan,
> > >
> > > it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular
> > "scholars"
> > > with political connections for "educating the cadres for
> > subversion of
> > > democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in
> > public life.
> > > That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying
> > jobs at
> > > these two filling stations.
> > > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to
> > all
> > > faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have
> > undermined
> > > the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent
> > workers, later
> > > politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in
> > Nandigram or
> > > Singur is well documented now.
> > > Regards.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Sadan Jha <sadan at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm
> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > >> Dear All,
> > >> Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it
> > >> with you.
> > >> This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History
> > >> Department, D.U.
> > >> sadan.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department
> > H-ASIA
> > >> Frank Conlon <conlon at u.washington.edu>  to H-ASIA
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> H-ASIA
> > >> Feburary 25, 2008
> > >>
> > >> Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department
> > >>
> >
> ************************************************************************>>
> From: Frank Conlon
> > >>
> > >> Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts
> > >> regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP
> > >> (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized
> > "student">> movement of the Hindu right in India.  Some of our
> > readers will take
> > >> exception to that
> > >> description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel
> > >> comfortable writing it.
> > >>
> > >> Like everything else, the story requires some context, and,
> > >> remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a
> > >> Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the
> > pretense>> that it was built on the actual historical birthplace
> > of the god Rama,
> > >> Rama once again figures prominently in the story.  Over the past
> > >> months there has been a resurgance  "Rama"publicity arising in part
> > >> out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of
> > >> India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels.
> > >> This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this
> > >> dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the
> > seabed,>> known as "the Rama Setu"  that has been credited in
> > mythology to
> > >> Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem.
> > >>
> > >> In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and
> > >> hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever
> > mix it
> > >> up in the ring of public affairs.  So, much has been written in the
> > >> past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the
> > >> preservation of the Rama legacy.
> > >>
> > >> Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate
> > >> press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year.
> > >> Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published"
> > by the
> > >> Delhi University History Department--and attributed--
> > erroneously--to
> > >> Professor Upinder
> > >> Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History.  The
> > >> fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime
> > Minister>> Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with
> > the association
> > >> of her name with the protest.  The  "book" was in fact not a
> > >> publication at all, but a
> > >> collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent
> > >> course on
> > >> Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme.  The
> > packet>> included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled
> > "Three Hundred
> > >> Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation",
> > which has
> > >> appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman
> > edited by
> > >> Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking
> > >> collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative
> > >> Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991).  Of
> > course, many
> > >> readers of H-ASIA are
> > >> familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's
> > contributions to
> > >> the study of the history and culture of India including his
> > wonderful>> translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry.
> > >>
> > >> At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi
> > >> shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of
> > that was
> > >> manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of
> > >> devout Hindus"  by the Delhi University History Department.
> > >>
> > >> An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may
> > suffice>> to give a flavor of the campaign.
> > >>
> > >> From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html
> > >> The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti  Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that
> > >> Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore
> > >> and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the
> > >> students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced
> > >> Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of
> > Sita>> so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all
> > through under the
> > >> convenient cover of a folklore!
> > >> "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different
> > versions>> of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious
> > intention has
> > >> become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition
> > government].>> Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders,
> > Shiksha Bharati and
> > >> Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues.
> > >>
> > >> "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons)
> > second>> year course has included portions defaming and
> > denigrating the
> > >> characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and
> > projecting the
> > >> entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake."
> > and
> > >> it goes on to cite a
> > >> groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be
> > >> perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of
> > >> course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister.
> > >>
> > >> On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued
> > >> the following statement:
> > >>
> > >> DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI,
> > >> IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008
> > >>
> > >> 1.      A number of groups have organised protest and have raised
> > >> objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan,
> > >> titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three
> > Thoughts on
> > >> Translation".  The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker
> > (ed.)>> The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford
> > University>> Press, 1999, pp. 131-60;  [this was an expanded
> > version of a piece
> > >> that first
> > >> appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity
> > of a
> > >> Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California
> > >> Press, 1991].  The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi
> > >> University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B.
> > >> A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several
> > Colleges from
> > >> July 2006 onwards.
> > >> 2.      The sole purpose of this course is to create an
> > awareness and
> > >> understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient
> > >> India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources.
> > >> Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes
> > >> readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil
> > poets and
> > >> poetry, ancient
> > >> iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The
> > >> essay is
> > >> part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories,
> > >> characters, versions.'  It is accompanied by an excerpt from
> > Iravati>> Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch.
> > Supplementary readings
> > >> include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of
> > >> Valmiki: an epic of
> > >> ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English
> > >> translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly
> > >> introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana.
> > >>
> > >> 3.      The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours,
> > >> including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with
> > >> impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of
> > languages>> including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps
> > without parallel. His
> > >> credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive
> > knowledge>> of ancient Indian literary traditions are
> > incontestable. It is sad to
> > >> see his name and work
> > >> being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the
> > article in
> > >> question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and
> > variety>> in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama
> > within India
> > >> and across the world.
> > >>
> > >> 4.      The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the
> > >> readings for it went through the same procedure as all other
> > courses>> in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted.
> > The readings
> > >> have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the
> > >> other University courses, they are the product of a consultative
> > >> process involving many members of the University community. The
> > >> content and readings for this
> > >> course were discussed extensively among Department members and
> > College>> teachers, and were approved through the regular
> > University procedures
> > >> in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of
> > >> Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which
> > >> include
> > >> teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest
> > >> statutory body on academic matters in the University.
> > >>
> > >> 5.      We would like to emphasize that there is no published
> > >> compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any
> > other>> member of the Department of History.  However, it has come
> > to our
> > >> notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies
> > of the
> > >> individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain
> > >> photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on
> > >> which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any
> > >> authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this
> > collection of
> > >> photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book'
> > compiled>> by her. There is in fact no book.
> > >>
> > >> 6.      When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not
> > essential>> that the course-designers, teachers, or students
> > should agree with or
> > >> defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and
> > >> dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It
> > may be
> > >> pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to
> > >> certain individuals should in no way be construed as
> > mischievous or
> > >> slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or
> > attempting>> to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture,
> > religion,>> tradition, or community.
> > >>
> > >> 7.      The aim of the course in question is to teach University
> > >> students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to
> > analyze a
> > >> variety of source material academically, analytically, and without
> > >> embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the
> > course>> was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it
> > is being
> > >> taught.
> > >>
> > >> ------
> > >> On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that
> > Mayawati, the
> > >> Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be
> > >> banned.
> > >>
> > (
> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under<http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp%29under>
> > >> a headline:
> > >> "PM daughter in Ramayan row"
> > >>
> > >> New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has
> > asked the
> > >> Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University
> > history>> students that allegedly contains  objectionable
> > references to
> > >> characters in the Ramayan.
> > >>
> > >> Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil
> > >> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing,
> > protested>> in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text
> > was part of a book
> > >> compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh.
> > >>
> > >> Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has,
> > >> however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her
> > >> students.
> > >> "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious
> > >> article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which
> > >> contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being
> > linked to
> > >> the text," she told The Telegraph.
> > >>
> > >> Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not
> > >> yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was
> > >> motivated by concerns over law and order in her state."
> > >>
> > >> The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General
> > >> Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt
> > >> the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was
> > seeking>> a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the
> > contents>> of a
> > >> research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried
> > >> students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in
> > >> their exam.
> > >>
> > >> "If the article is taught, students will be expected to
> > reproduce it
> > >> in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE
> > WHAT IS
> > >> TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu
> > students>> will be
> > >> forced to write something they do not believe in," she said.
> > >>
> > >> The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor
> > and the
> > >> head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's
> > essay>> from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely
> > compiled a book
> > >> with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been
> > >> published but we have a copy," Sharma said."
> > >>
> > >> Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to
> > >> generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American
> > >> ploy  for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those
> > who may
> > >> be offended by my editorial comment. FFC]
> > >>
> > >> To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a
> > >> group of
> > >> ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University
> > History>> department and physically manhandled the head of the
> > department.  The
> > >> following is reproduced as received including a note from the
> > Head of
> > >> Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from
> > department>> students.  It was forwarded by Professor Indrani
> > Chatterjee.>>
> > >> Dear Colleague,
> > >>
> > >> This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the
> > >> Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some
> > damage>> to the structure and gaining some mileage from it.  They
> > partly>> succeeded in their venture.  No injuries to anybody
> > except  the glass
> > >> doors has been caused.  The other details you can see from the
> > >> students letter which follows.
> > >>
> > >> Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI
> > >>
> > >> DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS!
> > >> PUNISH THE CULPRITS!
> > >>
> > >> 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised
> > >> mob of
> > >> more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP
> > >> activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the
> > School of
> > >> Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the
> > Head of
> > >> the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they
> > wished>> to speak
> > >> to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II,
> > >> History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media
> > >> was present.
> > >> Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the  department
> > >> members, they began to ransack the department. Even without
> > speaking>> or giving a chance to the people present there from the
> > department to
> > >> speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office
> > of the
> > >> head of the
> > >> department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held
> > him by
> > >> his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable
> > >> damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass
> > panes,>> damaging books, office files and other objects in the
> > office was done
> > >> and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive
> > >> police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned
> > them>> of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It
> > is clear
> > >> that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating
> > violence>> in the department and it was a planned action to create
> > an atmosphere
> > >> of terror.
> > >>
> > >> This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police
> > personnel>> as well as the media. The media footage would clearly
> > show all that
> > >> happened in the office of the head of the Department of History
> > on the
> > >> 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not
> > belonging to
> > >> the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the
> > >> Department of
> > >> History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty
> > >> members to change the curriculum of history which has been
> > passed by
> > >> the due legal process of the University through the use of force
> > >> is a
> > >> clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy.
> > Freedom>> of expression is a fundamental right of every individual
> > and any
> > >> encroachment on the same is
> > >> not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are
> > >> seriously threatened.
> > >>
> > >> This  is an appeal from the students of history department  to
> > >> everyone in the University to raise their  voice against this
> > >> vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of
> > >> expression . We appeal to all students, staff   and teachers
> > >>
> > >> To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue,
> > Faculty>> of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008.
> > >>
> > >> Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or
> > >> not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for
> > >> critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this
> > >> 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic
> > department>> at Delhi University.
> > >>
> > >> As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which
> > >> comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to
> > >> send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan
> > >> <rangarajan.mahesh at gmail.com> at Delhi University.  The postal
> > address>> for the head of the department is:
> > >> Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri,
> > >> Head,
> > >> Department of History,
> > >> Faculty of Social Science building,
> > >> University of Delhi,
> > >> Delhi-110007.
> > >>
> > >> I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend
> > >> some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode
> > >> offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our
> > study>> of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research
> > in Europe,
> > >> America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian
> > >> concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we
> > >> frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the
> > >> "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity
> > >> politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob
> > >> action are small--but there are far too many university
> > >> administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who
> > >> wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of
> > ontroversy.>> In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not
> > quite as exotic
> > >> as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Frank
> > >>
> > >> Frank F. Conlon
> > >> Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian
> > >>     Studies & Comparative Religion
> > >> University of Washington
> > >> Seattle, WA 98195-3560      USA
> > >> Co-editor, H-ASIA
> > >> President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online
> > >> Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online
> > >> ******************************************************************
> > >>        To post to  H-ASIA  simply send your message to:
> > >>                        <H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Sadan Jha
> > >> Assistant Professor,
> > >> Centre for Social Studies.
> > >> Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road.
> > >> Surat. Gujarat. India.
> > >> blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com
> > >> _________________________________________
> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > >> subscribe in the subject header.
> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> > >> list
> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>



-- 
Partha Dasgupta
+919811047132

From parthaekka at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 13:55:02 2008
From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 13:55:02 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <e2fec1541579b.47c94dca@vsnl.net>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<32144e990802290053q33288181m893adf4dd22e8234@mail.gmail.com>
	<e4b98055c917.47c8270f@vsnl.net>
	<32144e990802290315s1e7d2017q134a05986ac3ef95@mail.gmail.com>
	<e2fec1541579b.47c94dca@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <32144e990803010025v368beb1v4d0cdece72f4c87f@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Radikarajen,

As things are today, a loud voice shouting is being accepted as the view of
the majority, and would have been even in the disgraceful ABVP episode(s)
had others not raised their voice back and made it abundantly obvious that
a) the ABVP protestors had absolutely no clue what the issue was and that b)
they do *not *have a following of their absurd concept of moral policing.

As adults, we have a mind, and a right to believe what we want to without
loud voices shouting in our ear and telling us what to do. It is completely
my personal choice whether or not I wish to buy a Hussain painting or not
(not that I could begin to afford them). As an artist, he is completely free
to depict a God or Goddesses as he wants. I mean, next the jockey club may
want to lodge cases against him for the way he has drawn horses!! That is so
absurd...

I for one refuse to believe that the value of a God or a Goddess or our
faith in them can be affected by the way someone paints / draws them. Or
will we now take up the axe against the artistes who create icons of God for
Durga and Kali puja and leave them undressed and unadorned while they are
readying them for the Puja. Or should we take action against street vendors
who put posters of Gods and Goddesses on the streetside to sell as they get
dirty!!

Wouldn't we be far better off looking at something more constructive like
education or infrastructure or a host of other areas that this country needs
help (other than from the bumbling and uninformed moral policing of the
ABVP, that is).

Rgds, Partha
............................................

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 1:06 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:

> Hi, as the things today are, freedom of speech for an individual who lives
> in society has rights of speech, but can they be absolute rights over the
> societal rights, is the big debating issue. No doubt freedom of speech of an
> individual is not absolute and is to some extent the individual has to use
> moderation in his/her expression to be sensible about this right to express
> what is considered as against the societal rights.
>  Otherwise the issue of M F Hussain painting his prophet and earning
> crores for that would not be an issue as he chose to earn crores by painting
> some one elses' idols for his gains. Same is the issue with that cartoonist
> in danish cartoons, he had no courage to cartoon his christ but chose some
> one else. Taslima is that way more gutsy, as she focusses on ills in her
> commune and society  but still is hounded by her own faith loyalists who
> term themselves as staunch believers. ?
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, February 29, 2008 4:45 pm
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>
> > Dear Radhikarajen,
> >
> > The debate here is about freedom of speech and religion. What the
> > ABVP goons
> > are doing is enforcing a point of view about religion without even
> > knowingwhat they are talking about.
> >
> > Sure, we can go into the use of goons by political parties, and a
> > host of
> > other issues, but those are all besides the point of this debate.
> >
> > Rgds, Partha
> > ...............................
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 4:08 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Partha,
> > >
> > >  isn't it true that every political party has students wing,
> > every party
> > > uses them to train up as goons, whereas the need of the society
> > is to
> > > channelise their energies in to productive societal use, why
> > this singling
> > > out of saffron goons when we have goons in every party as seen
> > just now the
> > > "farmers" mobilised for the budget approval, by goons for the
> > goons. ?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
> > > Date: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:23 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> > > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > > > Dear Radhikarajen,
> > > >
> > > > As an art student, learnt of the 'renaissance movement' in Europe
> > > > when after
> > > > decades of being kept in strict check by the Papal Church,
> > > > artistes and
> > > > people from different walks of life refused to swallow what was
> > > > forced upon
> > > > them in terms of belief.
> > > >
> > > > And I do hope that this madness of enforcing 'belief' stops soon
> > > > and is
> > > > replaced with a modern renaissance movement. Todays' paper also
> > > > contains an
> > > > incident where the ABVP goofed badly without knowing their
> > facts -
> > > > whichunfortunately seems to be the rule with ABVP instead of being
> > > > an exception!
> > > >
> > > > Rgds, Partha
> > > > ..............................
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:02 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Sadan,
> > > > >
> > > > >  it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular
> > > > > "scholars" with political connections for "educating the
> > cadres for
> > > > > subversion of democratic India, living examples are Yechury and
> > > > Karats in
> > > > > public life. That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards
> > > > in to
> > > > > paying jobs at these two filling stations.
> > > > > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but
> > respect to all
> > > > > faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have
> > > > undermined the
> > > > > faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent
> > workers, later
> > > > > politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in
> > > > Nandigram or
> > > > > Singur is well documented now.
> > > > > Regards.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Sadan Jha <sadan at sarai.net>
> > > > > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm
> > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear All,
> > > > > > Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to
> > share it
> > > > > > with you.
> > > > > > This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of
> > History> > > > Department, D.U.
> > > > > > sadan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department
> > > > H-ASIA
> > > > > > Frank Conlon <conlon at u.washington.edu>  to H-ASIA
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > H-ASIA
> > > > > > Feburary 25, 2008
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History
> > Department> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ************************************************************************> >
> > > From: Frank Conlon
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded
> > some posts
> > > > > > regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-
> > linked ABVP
> > > > > > (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized
> > > > "student"> > movement of the Hindu right in India.  Some of our
> > > > readers will take
> > > > > > exception to that
> > > > > > description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel
> > > > > > comfortable writing it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Like everything else, the story requires some context, and,
> > > > > > remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a
> > > > > > Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the
> > > > pretense> > that it was built on the actual historical birthplace
> > > > of the god Rama,
> > > > > > Rama once again figures prominently in the story.  Over
> > the past
> > > > > > months there has been a resurgance  "Rama"publicity
> > arising in
> > > > part> > out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the
> > > > southern tip of
> > > > > > India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal
> > > > vessels.> > This was seized upon by interested parties who argued
> > > > that this
> > > > > > dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the
> > > > seabed,> > known as "the Rama Setu"  that has been credited in
> > > > mythology to
> > > > > > Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and
> > > > > > hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever
> > > > mix it
> > > > > > up in the ring of public affairs.  So, much has been written
> > > > in the
> > > > > > past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama
> > and the
> > > > > > preservation of the Rama legacy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and
> > > > generate> > press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi
> > > > earlier this year.
> > > > > > Protests were mounted over what was called a "book"
> > > > "published" by the
> > > > > > Delhi University History Department--and attributed--
> > > > erroneously--to
> > > > > > Professor Upinder
> > > > > > Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian
> > History.  The
> > > > > > fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime
> > > > Minister> > Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with
> > > > the association
> > > > > > of her name with the protest.  The  "book" was in fact not a
> > > > > > publication at all, but a
> > > > > > collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent
> > > > > > course on
> > > > > > Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme.  The
> > > > packet> > included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled
> > > > "Three Hundred
> > > > > > Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation",
> > > > which has
> > > > > > appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman
> > > > edited by
> > > > > > Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-
> > breaking> > > > collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The
> > Diversity of a Narrative
> > > > > > Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991).  Of
> > > > course, many
> > > > > > readers of H-ASIA are
> > > > > > familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's
> > > > contributions to
> > > > > > the study of the history and culture of India including his
> > > > wonderful> > translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in
> > a Delhi
> > > > > > shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of
> > > > that was
> > > > > > manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of
> > feelings of
> > > > > > devout Hindus"  by the Delhi University History Department.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may
> > > > suffice> > to give a flavor of the campaign.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html
> > > > > > The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti  Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that
> > > > > > Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal
> > > > folklore> > and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche
> > > > before the
> > > > > > students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both
> > seduced> > > > Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the
> > character> > of Sita
> > > > > > so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all through
> > > > under the
> > > > > > convenient cover of a folklore!
> > > > > > "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different
> > > > versions> > of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious
> > > > intention has
> > > > > > become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition
> > > > government].> > Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders,
> > > > Shiksha Bharati and
> > > > > > Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons)
> > > > second> > year course has included portions defaming and
> > > > denigrating the
> > > > > > characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and
> > > > projecting the
> > > > > > entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake."
> > > >  and
> > > > > > it goes on to cite a
> > > > > > groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies
> > could be
> > > > > > perpetrated by the Delhi University History department,
> > and, of
> > > > > > course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department
> > > > issued> > the following statement:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI,
> > > > > > IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1.      A number of groups have organised protest and have
> > raised> > > > objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A.
> > K. Ramanujan,
> > > > > > titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three
> > > > Thoughts on
> > > > > > Translation".  The essay had been published in Vinay
> > > > Dharwadker (ed.)
> > > > > > The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford
> > > > University> > Press, 1999, pp. 131-60;  [this was an expanded
> > > > version of a piece
> > > > > > that first
> > > > > > appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity
> > > > of a
> > > > > > Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of
> > > > California> > Press, 1991].  The said essay is one of he readings
> > > > for the Delhi
> > > > > > University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in
> > the B.
> > > > > > A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several
> > > > Colleges from
> > > > > > July 2006 onwards.
> > > > > > 2.      The sole purpose of this course is to create an
> > > > awareness and
> > > > > > understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of
> > ancient> > > > India among students, and to acquaint them with
> > original sources.
> > > > > > Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course
> > > > includes> > readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient
> > > > Tamil poets and
> > > > > > poetry, ancient
> > > > > > iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The
> > > > > > essay is
> > > > > > part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories,
> > > > > > characters, versions.'  It is accompanied by an excerpt from
> > > > Iravati> > Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch.
> > > > Supplementary readings
> > > > > > include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The
> > Ramayana of
> > > > > > Valmiki: an epic of
> > > > > > ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English
> > > > > > translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly
> > > > > > introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3.      The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several
> > honours,> > > > including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed
> > scholar with
> > > > > > impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of
> > > > languages> > including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps
> > > > without parallel. His
> > > > > > credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive
> > > > knowledge> > of ancient Indian literary traditions are
> > > > incontestable. It is sad to
> > > > > > see his name and work
> > > > > > being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the
> > > > article in
> > > > > > question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and
> > > > variety> > in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama
> > > > within India
> > > > > > and across the world.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4.      The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture
> > and the
> > > > > > readings for it went through the same procedure as all other
> > > > courses> > in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted.
> > > > The readings
> > > > > > have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like
> > > > all the
> > > > > > other University courses, they are the product of a
> > consultative> > > > process involving many members of the
> > University community. The
> > > > > > content and readings for this
> > > > > > course were discussed extensively among Department members and
> > > > College> > teachers, and were approved through the regular
> > > > University procedures
> > > > > > in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses,
> > Faculty of
> > > > > > Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council,
> > > > which> > include
> > > > > > teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the
> > highest> > > > statutory body on academic matters in the University.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5.      We would like to emphasize that there is no published
> > > > > > compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any
> > > > other> > member of the Department of History.  However, it has
> > > > come to our
> > > > > > notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies
> > > > of the
> > > > > > individual articles and excerpts related to this course at
> > certain> > > > photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a
> > covering page on
> > > > > > which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any
> > > > > > authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this
> > > > collection of
> > > > > > photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book'
> > > > compiled> > by her. There is in fact no book.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 6.      When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not
> > > > essential> > that the course-designers, teachers, or students
> > > > should agree with or
> > > > > > defend each and every word therein. In fact debate,
> > dissent, and
> > > > > > dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It
> > > > may be
> > > > > > pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused
> > offence to
> > > > > > certain individuals should in no way be construed as
> > > > mischievous or
> > > > > > slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or
> > > > attempting> > to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture,
> > > > religion,> > tradition, or community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 7.      The aim of the course in question is to teach
> > University> > > > students (who are, after all, young adults) to
> > be able to
> > > > analyze a
> > > > > > variety of source material academically, analytically, and
> > without> > > > embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in
> > which the
> > > > course> > was framed and that is the spirit in which we
> > believe it
> > > > is being
> > > > > > taught.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > > On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that
> > > > Mayawati, the
> > > > > > Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the
> > book" be
> > > > > > banned.
> > > > > > (
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under<http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp%29under>
> <
> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp%29under>>
> <
> > >
> >
> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp%29under>a>
> headline:
> > > > > > "PM daughter in Ramayan row"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has
> > > > asked the
> > > > > > Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University
> > > > history> > students that allegedly contains  objectionable
> > > > references to
> > > > > > characters in the Ramayan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the
> > > > Akhil> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student
> > > > wing, protested
> > > > > > in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text was part
> > > > of a book
> > > > > > compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at
> > DU, has,
> > > > > > however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it
> > > > to her
> > > > > > students.
> > > > > > "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The
> > contentious> > > > article is not written by me. Nor is there any
> > book of mine which
> > > > > > contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being
> > > > linked to
> > > > > > the text," she told The Telegraph.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister
> > > > had not
> > > > > > yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime
> > Minister was
> > > > > > motivated by concerns over law and order in her state."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi
> > General> > > > Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate
> > attempt to
> > > > hurt> > the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP
> > > > was seeking
> > > > > > a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the
> > contents> > > > of a
> > > > > > research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried
> > > > > > students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's
> > version in
> > > > > > their exam.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "If the article is taught, students will be expected to
> > > > reproduce it
> > > > > > in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE
> > > > WHAT IS
> > > > > > TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu
> > > > students> > will be
> > > > > > forced to write something they do not believe in," she said.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor
> > > > and the
> > > > > > head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's
> > > > essay> > from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely
> > > > compiled a book
> > > > > > with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet
> > > > been> > published but we have a copy," Sharma said."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it
> > comes to
> > > > > > generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard
> > > > American> > ploy  for remarks that generate offense--I apologize
> > > > to those who may
> > > > > > be offended by my editorial comment. FFC]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To make a long story longer, today I received a report
> > that a
> > > > > > group of
> > > > > > ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University
> > > > History> > department and physically manhandled the head of the
> > > > department.  The
> > > > > > following is reproduced as received including a note from the
> > > > Head of
> > > > > > Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from
> > > > department> > students.  It was forwarded by Professor Indrani
> > > > Chatterjee.> >
> > > > > > Dear Colleague,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the
> > > > > > Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some
> > > > damage> > to the structure and gaining some mileage from it.  They
> > > > partly> > succeeded in their venture.  No injuries to anybody
> > > > except  the glass
> > > > > > doors has been caused.  The other details you can see from the
> > > > > > students letter which follows.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS!
> > > > > > PUNISH THE CULPRITS!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an
> > organised> > > > mob of
> > > > > > more than 100 people from outside the university led by
> > the ABVP
> > > > > > activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the
> > > > School of
> > > > > > Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the
> > > > Head of
> > > > > > the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they
> > > > wished> > to speak
> > > > > > to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA
> > Part II,
> > > > > > History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the
> > > > media> > was present.
> > > > > > Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the
> > department> > > > members, they began to ransack the department.
> > Even without
> > > > speaking> > or giving a chance to the people present there from
> > > > the department to
> > > > > > speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office
> > > > of the
> > > > > > head of the
> > > > > > department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held
> > > > him by
> > > > > > his collar and hurled abuses at those present there.
> > Considerable> > > > damage to the property of the department by
> > breaking the glass
> > > > panes,> > damaging books, office files and other objects in the
> > > > office was done
> > > > > > and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very
> > passive> > > > police! The outsiders threatened the faculty
> > members and
> > > > warned them
> > > > > > of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It is
> > > > clear> > that they had come with the clear intention of
> > > > perpetuating violence
> > > > > > in the department and it was a planned action to create an
> > > > atmosphere> > of terror.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police
> > > > personnel> > as well as the media. The media footage would clearly
> > > > show all that
> > > > > > happened in the office of the head of the Department of
> > > > History on the
> > > > > > 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not
> > > > belonging to
> > > > > > the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members
> > of the
> > > > > > Department of
> > > > > > History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the
> > faculty> > > > members to change the curriculum of history which
> > has been
> > > > passed by
> > > > > > the due legal process of the University through the use of
> > force> > > > is a
> > > > > > clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy.
> > > > Freedom> > of expression is a fundamental right of every
> > > > individual and any
> > > > > > encroachment on the same is
> > > > > > not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values
> > which are
> > > > > > seriously threatened.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This  is an appeal from the students of history department
> > to
> > > > > > everyone in the University to raise their  voice against this
> > > > > > vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of
> > > > > > expression . We appeal to all students, staff   and teachers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue,
> > > > Faculty> > of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great
> > > > intellectual or
> > > > > > not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit
> > subject for
> > > > > > critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will
> > deplore this
> > > > > > 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic
> > > > department> > at Delhi University.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to
> > which> > > > comments may be relayed, but one immediate
> > possibility would
> > > > be to
> > > > > > send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan
> > > > > > <rangarajan.mahesh at gmail.com> at Delhi University.  The postal
> > > > address> > for the head of the department is:
> > > > > > Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri,
> > > > > > Head,
> > > > > > Department of History,
> > > > > > Faculty of Social Science building,
> > > > > > University of Delhi,
> > > > > > Delhi-110007.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will add one more personal editorial note that again
> > will offend
> > > > > > some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this
> > > > episode> > offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past
> > > > and our study
> > > > > > of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research in
> > > > Europe,> > America and other parts of the world may not resemble
> > > > the Indian
> > > > > > concept in which secularism means "no offense to any
> > religion"-
> > > > -we
> > > > > > frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the
> > > > > > "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called
> > > > 'identity> > politics'--in the secure world of North America, the
> > > > risks of mob
> > > > > > action are small--but there are far too many university
> > > > > > administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as
> > customer' who
> > > > > > wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of
> > > > ontroversy.> > In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is
> > > > not quite as exotic
> > > > > > as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to
> > believe.> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Frank
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Frank F. Conlon
> > > > > > Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian
> > > > > >     Studies & Comparative Religion
> > > > > > University of Washington
> > > > > > Seattle, WA 98195-3560      USA
> > > > > > Co-editor, H-ASIA
> > > > > > President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online
> > > > > > Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online
> > > > > >
> > ******************************************************************> > >
> >        To post to  H-ASIA  simply send your message to:
> > > > > >                        <H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sadan Jha
> > > > > > Assistant Professor,
> > > > > > Centre for Social Studies.
> > > > > > Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla
> > Road.> > > > Surat. Gujarat. India.
> > > > > > blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com
> > > > > > _________________________________________
> > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-
> > request at sarai.net with
> > > > > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > > > To unsubscribe:
> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > > > _________________________________________
> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > with> > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > > To unsubscribe:
> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Partha Dasgupta
> > > > +919811047132
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Partha Dasgupta
> > +919811047132
> >
>



-- 
Partha Dasgupta
+919811047132

From asitredsalute at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 14:32:38 2008
From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:32:38 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com>

dear radhika pseudo seculars is a term used by fascist hindutva forces
against the left what do you want to prove by it now lets be clear
about the term secularism wchich means separtion of religion and
politcs wchich pecisely means the state should not have any religion
in fact in any civilised society religion should be a private affair
with respect to heretics and atheists thats the essence of democracy
people who want every one should follow one religion are fascists tell
me one thing clearly will you peole allow atheists to exist in your so
called democracy
what is your problem with du and jnu because they are different and
students have polical awareness and take  a stand do you want them to
be iims and iits just dreaming of migrating to usa and having tons of
money and gadgets while having naked pin ups in thier hostel rooms
now comingback to left the word  left as a historic origin going back
to french revolution and the seating arrangements in the britsh
parliament ie peole qwho wanted justice and social change thats the
exact connotation of the word left which is opposed to status quosism
and exploitative order if you are against left then what is your
politcal position are you a supporter of status quo which means
contination of brahminism, fuedalism, patriarcy  and capitalism there
is no neutral space in a polarised class society you have to choose
and thats a politcal choice iwhere do you stand with the opressed or
the opressors if you are not left then you are right supporting the
exploitative social order
asit

On 2/29/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> Dear Sadan,
>
>  it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular "scholars" with political connections for "educating the cadres for subversion of democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in public life. That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying jobs at these two filling stations.
> Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to all faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have undermined the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent workers, later politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in Nandigram or Singur is well documented now.
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sadan Jha <sadan at sarai.net>
> Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm
> Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>
> > Dear All,
> > Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it
> > with you.
> > This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History
> > Department, D.U.
> > sadan.
> >
> >
> > H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department   H-ASIA
> > Frank Conlon <conlon at u.washington.edu>  to H-ASIA
> >
> >
> > H-ASIA
> > Feburary 25, 2008
> >
> > Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department
> > ************************************************************************
> > From: Frank Conlon
> >
> > Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts
> > regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP
> > (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized "student"
> > movement of the Hindu right in India.  Some of our readers will take
> > exception to that
> > description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel
> > comfortable writing it.
> >
> > Like everything else, the story requires some context, and,
> > remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a
> > Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the pretense
> > that it was built on the actual historical birthplace of the god Rama,
> > Rama once again figures prominently in the story.  Over the past
> > months there has been a resurgance  "Rama"publicity arising in part
> > out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of
> > India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels.
> > This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this
> > dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the seabed,
> > known as "the Rama Setu"  that has been credited in mythology to
> > Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem.
> >
> > In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and
> > hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever mix it
> > up in the ring of public affairs.  So, much has been written in the
> > past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the
> > preservation of the Rama legacy.
> >
> > Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate
> > press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year.
> > Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published" by the
> > Delhi University History Department--and attributed--erroneously--to
> > Professor Upinder
> > Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History.  The
> > fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime Minister
> > Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with the association
> > of her name with the protest.  The  "book" was in fact not a
> > publication at all, but a
> > collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent
> > course on
> > Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme.  The packet
> > included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled "Three Hundred
> > Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", which has
> > appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman edited by
> > Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking
> > collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative
> > Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991).  Of course, many
> > readers of H-ASIA are
> > familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's contributions to
> > the study of the history and culture of India including his wonderful
> > translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry.
> >
> > At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi
> > shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of that was
> > manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of
> > devout Hindus"  by the Delhi University History Department.
> >
> > An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may suffice
> > to give a flavor of the campaign.
> >
> > From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html
> > The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti  Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that
> > Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore
> > and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the
> > students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced
> > Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of Sita
> > so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all through under the
> > convenient cover of a folklore!
> > "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different versions
> > of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious intention has
> > become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition government].
> > Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, Shiksha Bharati and
> > Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues.
> >
> > "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) second
> > year course has included portions defaming and denigrating the
> > characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and projecting the
> > entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake."   and
> > it goes on to cite a
> > groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be
> > perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of
> > course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister.
> >
> > On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued
> > the following statement:
> >
> > DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI,
> > IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008
> >
> > 1.      A number of groups have organised protest and have raised
> > objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan,
> > titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on
> > Translation".  The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker (ed.)
> > The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford University
> > Press, 1999, pp. 131-60;  [this was an expanded version of a piece
> > that first
> > appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a
> > Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California
> > Press, 1991].  The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi
> > University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B.
> > A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several Colleges from
> > July 2006 onwards.
> > 2.      The sole purpose of this course is to create an awareness and
> > understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient
> > India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources.
> > Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes
> > readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil poets and
> > poetry, ancient
> > iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The
> > essay is
> > part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories,
> > characters, versions.'  It is accompanied by an excerpt from Iravati
> > Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. Supplementary readings
> > include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of
> > Valmiki: an epic of
> > ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English
> > translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly
> > introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana.
> >
> > 3.      The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours,
> > including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with
> > impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of languages
> > including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps without parallel. His
> > credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive knowledge
> > of ancient Indian literary traditions are incontestable. It is sad to
> > see his name and work
> > being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the article in
> > question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and variety
> > in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama within India
> > and across the world.
> >
> > 4.      The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the
> > readings for it went through the same procedure as all other courses
> > in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. The readings
> > have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the
> > other University courses, they are the product of a consultative
> > process involving many members of the University community. The
> > content and readings for this
> > course were discussed extensively among Department members and College
> > teachers, and were approved through the regular University procedures
> > in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of
> > Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which
> > include
> > teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest
> > statutory body on academic matters in the University.
> >
> > 5.      We would like to emphasize that there is no published
> > compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any other
> > member of the Department of History.  However, it has come to our
> > notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies of the
> > individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain
> > photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on
> > which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any
> > authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this collection of
> > photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' compiled
> > by her. There is in fact no book.
> >
> > 6.      When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not essential
> > that the course-designers, teachers, or students should agree with or
> > defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and
> > dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It may be
> > pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to
> > certain individuals should in no way be construed as mischievous or
> > slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or attempting
> > to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, religion,
> > tradition, or community.
> >
> > 7.      The aim of the course in question is to teach University
> > students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to analyze a
> > variety of source material academically, analytically, and without
> > embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the course
> > was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it is being
> > taught.
> >
> > ------
> > On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that Mayawati, the
> > Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be
> > banned.
> > (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under a headline:
> > "PM daughter in Ramayan row"
> >
> > New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has asked the
> > Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University history
> > students that allegedly contains  objectionable references to
> > characters in the Ramayan.
> >
> > Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil
> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing, protested
> > in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text was part of a book
> > compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh.
> >
> > Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has,
> > however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her
> > students.
> > "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious
> > article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which
> > contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being linked to
> > the text," she told The Telegraph.
> >
> > Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not
> > yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was
> > motivated by concerns over law and order in her state."
> >
> > The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General
> > Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt
> > the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was seeking
> > a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the contents
> > of a
> > research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried
> > students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in
> > their exam.
> >
> > "If the article is taught, students will be expected to reproduce it
> > in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE WHAT IS
> > TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu students
> > will be
> > forced to write something they do not believe in," she said.
> >
> > The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor and the
> > head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's essay
> > from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely compiled a book
> > with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been
> > published but we have a copy," Sharma said."
> >
> > Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to
> > generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American
> > ploy  for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those who may
> > be offended by my editorial comment. FFC]
> >
> > To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a
> > group of
> > ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University History
> > department and physically manhandled the head of the department.  The
> > following is reproduced as received including a note from the Head of
> > Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from department
> > students.  It was forwarded by Professor Indrani Chatterjee.
> >
> > Dear Colleague,
> >
> > This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the
> > Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some damage
> > to the structure and gaining some mileage from it.  They partly
> > succeeded in their venture.  No injuries to anybody except  the glass
> > doors has been caused.  The other details you can see from the
> > students letter which follows.
> >
> > Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI
> >
> > DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS!
> > PUNISH THE CULPRITS!
> >
> > 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised
> > mob of
> > more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP
> > activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the School of
> > Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the Head of
> > the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they wished
> > to speak
> > to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II,
> > History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media
> > was present.
> > Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the  department
> > members, they began to ransack the department. Even without speaking
> > or giving a chance to the people present there from the department to
> > speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office of the
> > head of the
> > department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held him by
> > his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable
> > damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass panes,
> > damaging books, office files and other objects in the office was done
> > and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive
> > police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned them
> > of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It is clear
> > that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating violence
> > in the department and it was a planned action to create an atmosphere
> > of terror.
> >
> > This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police personnel
> > as well as the media. The media footage would clearly show all that
> > happened in the office of the head of the Department of History on the
> > 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not belonging to
> > the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the
> > Department of
> > History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty
> > members to change the curriculum of history which has been passed by
> > the due legal process of the University through the use of force
> > is a
> > clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. Freedom
> > of expression is a fundamental right of every individual and any
> > encroachment on the same is
> > not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are
> > seriously threatened.
> >
> > This  is an appeal from the students of history department  to
> > everyone in the University to raise their  voice against this
> > vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of
> > expression . We appeal to all students, staff   and teachers
> >
> > To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, Faculty
> > of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008.
> >
> > Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or
> > not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for
> > critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this
> > 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic department
> > at Delhi University.
> >
> > As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which
> > comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to
> > send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan
> > <rangarajan.mahesh at gmail.com> at Delhi University.  The postal address
> > for the head of the department is:
> > Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri,
> > Head,
> > Department of History,
> > Faculty of Social Science building,
> > University of Delhi,
> > Delhi-110007.
> >
> > I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend
> > some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode
> > offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our study
> > of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research in Europe,
> > America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian
> > concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we
> > frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the
> > "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity
> > politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob
> > action are small--but there are far too many university
> > administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who
> > wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of  ontroversy.
> > In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not quite as exotic
> > as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe.
> >
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > Frank F. Conlon
> > Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian
> >     Studies & Comparative Religion
> > University of Washington
> > Seattle, WA 98195-3560      USA
> > Co-editor, H-ASIA
> > President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online
> > Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online
> > ******************************************************************
> >        To post to  H-ASIA  simply send your message to:
> >                        <H-ASIA at h-net.msu.edu>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sadan Jha
> > Assistant Professor,
> > Centre for Social Studies.
> > Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road.
> > Surat. Gujarat. India.
> > blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com
> > _________________________________________
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> > Critiques & Collaborations
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> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
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From ravikant at sarai.net  Sat Mar  1 19:09:34 2008
From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 19:09:34 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Subrahmanyam on Ram Guha and Nussbaum
Message-ID: <200803011909.34817.ravikant@sarai.net>

London Review of Books  Vol. 29 No. 18 dated 20 September
2007

Sanjay Subrahmanyam

*India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy* by
Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00

*The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence and India's Future* by
Martha Nussbaum · Belknap, 403 pp, £19.95

It may seem perverse to begin an essay on India by invoking a historian of
France: Eugen Weber, who died this year, a colleague of mine and a
formidable presence at UCLA. He wrote a book in 1976 on how France became a
proper nation by transforming 'peasants into Frenchmen'. But the Weber I
knew, and bantered with during the last years of his life, also had an
Indian past of which he felt periodically obliged to speak, though he spoke
of it to me with discomfort. Born in Bucharest, Weber was sent to school in
England, served in the Second World War as a captain in the King's Own
Scottish Borderers, and in the course of his service spent the mid-1940s in
India, after earlier stints in Belgium and Germany. Demobilised in 1947, he
went to Cambridge, and devoted the rest of his life to history, mostly
French history. He maintained his affection for India and visited it a few
times in later years. It was an affection that was tempered by chilling
memories of the religious violence he had witnessed at close quarters in
1946-47; hence the discomfort he felt in talking about it.

Weber is best known for his account of the building of the modern French
nation in the course of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It is an
account that involves roads and railways, schoolrooms and stern *
instituteurs*, and the production of homogeneous 'Frenchness' (as both
reality and myth) from the diverse *terroirs* that still existed in 1870. It
is either a version of modernisation theory, as some of its critics have
claimed, or a sly account of the modernising pretensions and projects of the
Parisian elite, or both of these – as Weber sometimes hinted. Devoid of
pretentious jargon, or any overt nod in the direction of the social
sciences, Weber's work has been a model of how to write modern national
histories since its publication thirty years ago. Its long shadow falls even
on Benedict Anderson's account of the way print capitalism helped create the
'imagined communities' that are today's nation-states.

No such master account has yet been written of the modern Indian
nation-state, partly because historians of the subcontinent have usually
shied away from the period after 1947, leaving that task to political
scientists, sociologists and omniscient travellers. The curious practices of
Indian archives and their keepers have not helped either: documents are
declassified and allowed into the public domain on a very erratic basis.
When my wife, a historian of modern France, asked me some time ago to
recommend an accessible work on the history of modern India, I couldn't
think of one. Sumit Sarkar's sweeping but dense account, *Modern
India,*stopped at 1947; the collective volume entitled
*India after Independence* by Bipan Chandra, Aditya Mukherjee and Mridula
Mukherjee was a stodgy piece of nationalist-Marxist writing from the rank
and file of plodders at New Delhi's Jawaharlal Nehru University. Though an
admirer of many of V.S. Naipaul's novels, I could not subject my wife to a
diet of such bile-infused travelogues as *An Area of Darkness*, or to
Naipaul's later apologia for right-wing Hindu nationalism in *India: A
Million Mutinies Now*. Eventually, I settled for Sunil Khilnani's *The Idea
of India*, an urbane, readable and sometimes personal account by a
historically-minded political scientist who, again, had worked on France –
his first book was *Arguing Revolution: The Intellectual Left in Postwar
France*. Khilnani's work on India has the virtue of assuming little prior
knowledge of that part of the world. It also has one significant vice: its
author's weakness for the personality and ideas of independent India's first
prime minister, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (1889-1964), whose biography he is
now writing.

It was only a matter of time before this massive historiographical gap would
be filled. The task that Ramachandra Guha sets himself in his massive *India
after Gandhi* is not quite that of describing the Indian *fin des
terroirs*(the first French title of the translated
*Peasants into Frenchmen*). But it is the story of the building of a rather
improbable nation-state from a fragmented political landscape, and as such
it is first of all a political account. Like Weber's work, it is also
primarily a narrative account, expertly and fluently written; it has
apparently found its way to the top of the non-fiction bestseller list in
India (a list that is itself a form of fiction). It also avoids jargon and
too much use of the social sciences and their apparatus.

Guha has had an unorthodox career. Initially trained as an economist, he
then moved into historical sociology (tempered with anthropology): his first
book-length work was on the history of an environmental movement in the
Himalayas. Over the past two decades, he has continued off and on to work on
the environment, in the form of general histories, comparative reflections
and tracts with a more contemporary message. A second interest has been the
history of anthropology, largely through his engagement with the life of the
missionary-turned-anthropologist Verrier Elwin. He has also written on the
history of sport in colonial and post-colonial India, and above all cricket,
about which he also writes in a more popular style. He has refused a secure
position in the academy, and makes a living from writing and lectures,
including regular columns in two Indian newspapers, the *Telegraph* and the
*Hindu*. He is probably the best-known public historian in India today, and
the one whose books and collections of essays – as against those of Partha
Chatterjee or Romila Thapar – the visitor is most likely to find in a
middle-class drawing-room. If he has a rival in the public domain, it is the
Delhi-based Scotsman William Dalrymple, with whom he does not quite see eye
to eye for reasons having to do with their respective positions on British
imperialism and Indian nationalism.

The reader of *India after Gandhi* will come quickly to the conclusion that
Guha is indeed an Indian nationalist, though a moderate and self-critical
one. He is also a self-defined 'liberal', a word that has no real resonance
in Indian politics today, but which is meant to suggest a distance from both
Marxist historiography and the ideology of the right-wing Hindu nationalists
who until recently were in power in New Delhi. He has set out to produce an
account of India since 1947 focusing on why India has remained a democracy
against the odds, using the 'techniques of the narrative historian' rather
than those of the social scientist. The basic argument is straightforward
enough: there are forces that divide India, and others that keep it
together. Among the first set of forces, there are four in particular, all
large and impersonal: caste, language, religion and class. These operate at
times singly and at times together. The forces that keep India together, and
which are still somehow winning out, are vaguer and less evident. Near the
end of his prologue, which he calls 'Unnatural Nation', Guha assures us
these forces 'have included individuals as well as institutions'. But in
what proportion, one is entitled to ask, and in what combinations?

Guha tells his story in five sections. The first, 'Picking up the Pieces',
addresses the immediate aftermath of Partition and independence, beginning
with the assassination of Gandhi in January 1948, and in 120 dense pages
sets the stage for what follows; the second, longer section is 'Nehru's
India', and carries the story forward to 1957, when it seemed that Nehru's
plans for a modern, industrialised, secular India might actually be
implemented; the third, 'Shaking the Centre', chronicles Nehru's declining
years, including the disastrous war in 1962 with China; the fourth, 'The
Rise of Populism', takes us through the complex cycle of the rise to power,
temporary eclipse, second rise and ultimate murder of Nehru's only child,
Indira Gandhi, and then of her own elder son, Rajiv; the fifth, final
section, in which the author, in his own words, 'moves from "history" to
what might instead be called "historically informed journalism"', takes us
from the late 1980s to the present. The balance, however, is clear enough:
the Nehru years are at the heart of the book.

The good philosopher-king, succeeded by the scheming, corrupt and spoilt
princess-in-waiting, and then by the well-intentioned but weak, pouting and
feckless young prince. This sounds rather like the dynastic history that
early modern historians, myself included, used to practise (Nehru as Charles
V, Mrs Gandhi as Philip II and so on). That isn't entirely Guha's fault. The
raw material of modern high politics in India is, after all, largely
dynastic, as it is to some extent in Pakistan and Bangladesh. But Guha makes
choices which exaggerate this aspect. The most significant is his decision
to 'humanise' his history by consistently highlighting the place and role of
individuals, Nehru and Indira Gandhi most prominently. This is not to say
that there aren't a number of Rosencrantzes and Guildensterns around: the
book abounds in deft portrayals of political figures, from Communists such
as Namboodiripad in Kerala, to separatists in the north-east and Kashmir.
There is even the Polonius-like Iyengar Brahmin from Tamil Nadu, C.
Rajagopalachari, who wags his finger and advises all and sundry to neither a
borrower nor a lender be. But for all his skill with portraiture, it is a
relief when the social scientist periodically re-emerges to tell us of the
planning process and its pitfalls, or of the abiding problems of poverty and
caste in a 'globalised' India, or even when he invokes Durkheim to discuss
the issue of farmers' suicides.

This is, in many ways, a dazzling book. Its prose is always attractive, and
it has a sure chronological organisation. The different regions get a fair
and balanced treatment, which is not always the case in such histories.
Besides memoirs, monographs, essays and contemporary newspapers, Guha has
also examined important archival collections, such as the papers of Indira
Gandhi's right-hand man in the early 1970s, P.N. Haksar. But those inclined
to a more inclusive social history will find the biographically-oriented
political narrative overwhelming. And little space is given to culture, even
to sport – a surprise, given Guha's enthusiasm for it. But the central
problem remains: how to organise a narrative history in the absence of a
governing thesis such as that proposed and defended by Eugen Weber? And what
might such a central thesis have been, had Guha chosen to pursue one?

He might possibly have focused on social mobility and its limits over the
past sixty years. This would have meant dealing jointly with two of the
issues that he sees as crucial challenges to Indian democracy: caste and
class. He is in truth well aware of how fruitful this line of inquiry can
be: 'as a laboratory of social conflict,' he writes, 'the India of the 20th
century is – for the historian – at least as interesting as the Europe of
the 19th,' adding that 'in India the scope for contention has been even
greater, given the diversity of competing groups across religion, caste,
class and language.' If Guha had gone further, the real question would have
been how it is that India, despite the fact that it has effectively provided
so little opportunity for economic and social mobility, has nevertheless
experienced comparatively little social violence. This is not to understate
the violence that takes place in both towns and countryside, whether the
bloody eruptions or the quiet violence of everyday oppression. But it is
remarkable how different the situation in India is from that in Latin
America or much of Africa. The violence of a city such as Mumbai, dramatised
in recent years by, for example, Suketu Mehta in *Maximum** City*, does not
really compare with São Paulo, Mexico City or Lagos.

To explain this, some would stress the complementary relationship between
India's political system and its social and economic dynamics. To writers
such as the Paris-based political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot – he is
only one among many to make the point – the political system in India
effectively diverts energies that might in other societies have exploded
violently. In *India's Silent Revolution: The Rise of the Lower Castes in
North India* (2003), Jaffrelot plots the rise to political office of a large
number of lower-caste men and even some women. A particularly dramatic
instance was the 'bandit queen', Phoolan Devi (1963-2001), who belonged to
the *mallah* caste of boat people in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh.
After serving 11 years in prison, she was elected to the Indian Parliament
in 1996 on behalf of the Samajwadi Party, and was eventually shot outside
her home in New Delhi. Revenge was given as the motive behind her killers'
actions: most belonged to far higher castes than she did. It is also
possible to plot the entrepreneurial use of the political system by those
who could certainly never have been recruited into the Indian Administrative
Service. The pool of industrial entrepreneurs in India still remains
limited, with very few exceptions to a small group of castes; politics, on
the other hand, has opened up in a way that it has not in neighbouring
Pakistan or Bangladesh.

In other words, the Indian world is not much like Weber's France, in which a
relatively limited and coherent elite set out to 'modernise' the rest of the
nation in both discursive and institutional terms. In India, from the time
of Nehru to the present day, it is the political elite itself that has been
transformed, in ways that are deeply disturbing to upper-caste voices and
points of view. This has gone hand in hand with what has been called the
'criminalisation of politics': large numbers of legislators in India today
are either convicted felons, or face criminal charges of one sort or
another. But this cannot be separated from the larger problem of how the
limits placed on mobility by class and caste can be addressed in a
democratic framework. The question was close to the heart of one of Guha's
mentors, the liberal sociologist André Béteille, and has been addressed more
recently by political theorists further to the left, such as Partha
Chatterjee, who have posited a lasting distinction between the tea and
biscuits of 'civil society' and the rough and tumble of 'political society'.
Whether or not one wishes to accept such a rigid distinction, it could
certainly provide the guiding theme for a discussion of the past sixty
years.

An alternative focus might have been the issue of regions, and the various
centrifugal and centripetal forces that inhere in a space that is more
populous and perhaps more complex than the European Union. Guha discusses
the problem largely in relation to two sets of issues: first, the way region
is read through the prism of language and linguistic divisions; and second,
the problem of the northern and north-eastern border states, which have long
challenged Indian political unity. However, we are now aware that sixty
years of independence have, if anything, sharpened regional disparities in
India, not so much in cultural terms – where some homogenisation can be seen
– but in relation to such basic factors as demography. It is possible to
draw a diagonal line sloping from right to left across the centre of India –
a sort of 'St Malo-Geneva line' in reverse – and to discern sharp
differences above and below the line in terms of rates of population growth,
infant mortality, economic status for women and relative numbers of men and
women. This can be recast as a more complex problem still, once the role of
megacities is taken into consideration. Such phenomena as the alleged
transformation of peasants into programmers are what Guha has in mind when
he cites Amartya Sen, who worries that one half of India will come to look
and live like California, the other half like sub-Saharan Africa. This could
just as easily be said of growth in China in the age of globalisation. Just
as significant is the fact that such economic and social differences could
well manifest themselves regionally. In other words, even as a number of the
older cultural conflicts based on such considerations as language or
'ethnicity' (in particular, the somewhat bogus divide between Aryans and
Dravidians) have been resolved, other longer-term regional differences have
persisted and even become aggravated, with every prospect of further
aggravation as both politics and political economy become more rather than
less decentralised. Guha hints at some of these issues, but eventually sets
them aside. In so doing, he may gain a large audience but he misses the
opportunity – if that is the right word – to have a real argument with
others in the field.

The problem of narrative exposition finds a quite different solution in
Martha Nussbaum's *The Clash Within*, a book less than half the size of
Guha's doorstop. After training in Hellenistic philosophy and the
interpretation of Aristotle, Nussbaum has begun in recent years to write far
more widely on issues of development, feminism and public affairs. Her
interest in India stems from personal dealings over two decades with a
number of prominent Indians (especially the family of Kshiti Mohan Sen and
Amartya Sen); in her preface, she relates this to her conversion from an
'elite Wasp heritage' to Judaism and 'the cause of the underdog in my own
country', and adds that she is 'sure that my passion for India (and
particularly for Bengali culture) reflects a similar enthusiasm for the
colonial underdog'. Nussbaum says she celebrates Indian Independence Day on
15 August 'enthusiastically' in Chicago (even Indian ambassadors abroad have
been known merely to go through the motions on 15 August). This is arguably
a more curious form of – vicarious – Indian nationalism than that of
Ramachandra Guha, who still lives in Bangalore.

Nussbaum's book deals with religious violence in India, and more
particularly with Hindu majoritarian violence organised around groups often
called by their three-letter acronyms (the RSS, VHP, BJP and so on). It is
primarily a sort of travelogue, reviving the narrative form of philosopher
as traveller most famously associated with the French doctor (and disciple
of Gassendi) François Bernier, in 17th-century Mughal India. Nussbaum is
manifestly a liberal, in the American sense of a left-leaning Democrat. Her
intention is to be Socratic, open and engaging with her Indian
interlocutors, who include a number of rather unpleasant defenders (and
perhaps even some perpetrators) of mass violence.

Nussbaum's book is, she claims, intended 'for an American and European
audience' and is meant as a 'loudspeaker' for views already expressed in
India by other, presumably less famous scholars. I suppose I am not its
ideal reader. If the book were to raise awareness in the West of the
acuteness of certain forms of politico-religious tension in India and the
role played by a number of clearly identifiable groups in organising and
justifying mass violence, that would be laudable. But if it is intended as a
work of genuine scholarship on India, questions can and should be raised. A
work like this can easily cause embarrassment among those devoted to the
same political causes as Nussbaum, and, to judge by responses on the
internet, it may already have done so. It will be easy enough for those who
want to mock the book and its political message to point to its errors of
historical fact, its eccentric views regarding Indian scripts and the
difference between Hindi and Urdu, and debatable statements on a variety of
other questions, where Nussbaum is simply paraphrasing or repeating what she
has been told, without being able to apply her own considerable critical
faculties to the questions at hand.

Perhaps with a view to getting around this problem, Nussbaum resorts for a
good portion of the book to first-person accounts of her own experiences,
including interviews with a number of the dramatis personae. But the
interviews are rather stylised and follow predictable patterns. There is
usually a physical description of the interviewee: Arun Shourie has 'a long
straight moustache, restless burning eyes, a bald head fringed with thick
grey hair'; Romila Thapar has 'a stately bearing, a deep, mellifluous voice
and elite, British-accented English', and so on. When Nussbaum is
sympathetic to their views, they are presented with a minimum of fuss; when
she is not, they are presented condescendingly, as psychologically
inadequate or disturbed persons, as much to be pitied as they are to be
censured; only occasionally does she find someone really beyond the pale.
There is also an occasional (perhaps involuntary) genuflection to reflexive
anthropology, as when we find Nussbaum on a January morning in Delhi
'wrapping my shawl vainly around my cotton *salwaar kameez*', since she
cannot persuade her taxi driver to drive with his windows closed (normally a
simple task for non-philosopher travellers). The significance of her
clothing on this occasion escapes me.

At the end of these interviews, which are interspersed with reflections on
Gandhi and Tagore (whom Nussbaum greatly admires) and Nehru (for whom her
admiration is more mixed), one knows no more than one would have found out
by reading the Indian newspapers from time to time. Nussbaum is preaching to
the converted, and no one who does not share her views at the beginning is
likely to change their mind by the end. The constant references to Tagore,
and to his relevance in India today, are misplaced since even the Bengali *
bhadralok* bourgeoisie has now shown signs of moving beyond his deist
philosophising and monotonous romantic message. Yet Nussbaum continues to
insist that 'India needs Tagore today even more than it needs Nehru and
Gandhi,' as if theirs were the only significant points of view available.
One can see the traces here of her excessive dependence on expatriate
Bengali informants, as if Chicago were no more than an intellectual suburb
of Kolkata.

Nevertheless, the publication of Nussbaum's book by a major US university
press and the reviews of it that have appeared in many non-academic journals
and magazines, might suggest that even the bad times are good. Interest in
the Indian subcontinent is at a high in the Atlantic world, after years in
which Japan, Korea and China were at the centre of attention. The trade
press is now open to those who work on India, not just to novelists and
travellers. More will be heard.

* Sanjay Subrahmanyam*
<http://www.lrb.co.uk/contribhome.php?get=subr01>teaches history at
UCLA. He is completing a book entitled
*Three Ways to Be an Alien*.

-------------------------------------------------------

From ravikant at sarai.net  Sat Mar  1 19:21:54 2008
From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 19:21:54 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
	<f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>

This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of the 
violence in DU. 

Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many 
Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also the 
follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas

http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/

On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008) 
by RAVIKANT

http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/

You may have seen the edit in today’s HT condemning the act of vandalism and 
the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also seen 
reports in today’s newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in Delhi 
University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty and 
reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just because 
ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the text in 
question is A K Ramanujan’s Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three 
Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula Richman: 
Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia (OUP; 
1991.) 
You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over this 
for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure on the 
department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly a soft 
target. Dr. Upinder Singh’s name was also dragged into the controversy to 
kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to embarass 
the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter. The PMO 
was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy. 
But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of media 
involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the 
delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus which 
was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus making, etc. 
So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat Sharma 
of India TV shame — which I think lacks both resources and ideas and yet 
wants to stay up in the ratings — roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to debate 
the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not read the 
text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept 
highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something about 
it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not a 
surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the camera 
crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less 
surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played the 
footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into action 
and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging.
I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always intrigued by 
my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other uttered by 
some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after bath but 
I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he referred to 
Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had a 
small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins, who 
earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the 
Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was held every 
now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing ‘hare ram 
hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna 
hare hare’ so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The 
important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather classy and 
genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the 
Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have been 
transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not have any 
memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding the 
non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came alive to 
me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra’s recital of Sundarkand: the 
classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different ways 
some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed the 
Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP would 
want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they will go 
mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha’s Khattar Kaka. 
Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don’t read as much as they 
should!

From indersalim at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 20:03:21 2008
From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 20:03:21 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
	<f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
Message-ID: <47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com>

Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation
A. K. Ramanujan
How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some
Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have
there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is
one.
One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When
it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared
into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet.
Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me."
Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power
to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing.
So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole.
He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld.
There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from
above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The
King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat
animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with
his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do.
While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on
the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him.
They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want
anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?"
"All right," said Rama, "we'll talk."
Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are
talking, his head should be cut off."
"It will be done," said Rama.
Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman
had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than
Laksmana,
________________________________________
― 23 ―
so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to
enter," he ordered.
Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared
and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is
Rama?"
Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's important."
"What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must
go in, right now."
Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you in."
"Go in and ask then."
"I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait."
"If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire
kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra.
Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this
hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things
living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die."
So he went right in.
Rama asked him, "What's the matter?"
"Visvamitra is here."
"Send him in."
So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end.
Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in
the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now
he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's
all they wanted to say.
Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head."
Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why
should I cut off your head?"
Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm
your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your
wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave."
Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His
time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared
in the flowing waters.
When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers,
Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his
twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu.
All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally
taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama.
"Rama Rama Rama . . ."
Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?"
"Hanuman."
"Hanuman? Why have you come here?"
________________________________________
― 24 ―
"Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it."
The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands
of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to
Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take
it."
They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said
Hanuman, shaking his head.
The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are
rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find
Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of
Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep
them. Now you can go."
So Hanuman left.
This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there
is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their
influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five
hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in
which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese,
Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri,
Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit,
Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of
Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have
hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone
contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various
narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas
or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays,
dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk
traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must
be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and
shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2]
Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred
tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth
century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata ,
because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning
under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada
kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous
previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for
myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a
story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions
relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed.
Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas
Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have
come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or
variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that
there is an invariant, an original or
________________________________________
― 25 ―
Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most
prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always
Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another.
It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The
tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and
texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for
example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas
(like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ;
they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama),
Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of
Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki
also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and
kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the
English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to
the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be
the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different.
Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the
style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be
vastly different.
Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same
point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first
book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the
first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both
narrate the story of Ahalya.
The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki
To read more , please click:

http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol


On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant <ravikant at sarai.net> wrote:
> This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of the
>  violence in DU.
>
>  Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many
>  Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also the
>  follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas
>
>  http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/
>
>  On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008)
>  by RAVIKANT
>
>  http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/
>
>  You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of vandalism and
>  the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also seen
>  reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in Delhi
>  University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty and
>  reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just because
>  ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the text in
>  question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three
>  Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula Richman:
>  Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia (OUP;
>  1991.)
>  You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over this
>  for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure on the
>  department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly a soft
>  target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the controversy to
>  kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to embarass
>  the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter. The PMO
>  was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy.
>  But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of media
>  involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the
>  delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus which
>  was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus making, etc.
>  So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat Sharma
>  of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and yet
>  wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to debate
>  the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not read the
>  text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept
>  highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something about
>  it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not a
>  surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the camera
>  crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less
>  surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played the
>  footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into action
>  and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging.
>  I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always intrigued by
>  my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other uttered by
>  some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after bath but
>  I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he referred to
>  Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had a
>  small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins, who
>  earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the
>  Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was held every
>  now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing 'hare ram
>  hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna
>  hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The
>  important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather classy and
>  genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the
>  Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have been
>  transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not have any
>  memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding the
>  non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came alive to
>  me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of Sundarkand: the
>  classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different ways
>  some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed the
>  Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP would
>  want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they will go
>  mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's Khattar Kaka.
>  Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much as they
>  should!
>
>
> _________________________________________
>  reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>  Critiques & Collaborations
>  To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
>  To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>  List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>



--

From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 23:52:31 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:52:31 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Poignant play on plight of Kashmiri Pandits
In-Reply-To: <6353c690803020929u129dd89bq13e3b48cfa9451cd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6353c690803020929u129dd89bq13e3b48cfa9451cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6353c690803021022x7c50563v3cc5f86c5baf54eb@mail.gmail.com>

*Poignant play on plight of Kashmiri Pandits
* **
**
 *Chandigarh, February 29*
*Trishna, a play depicting the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, was staged by
'Roots in Kashmir' (RIK)-an initiative launched by the Kashmiri youth. The
play highlighted the atrocities inflicted upon the minority community. *
*-*
*The play, staged in three parts, depicted the real life incidents of three
families that underwent the trauma of terrorism in Kashmir. In the
beginning, Rajesh, who was to become a father in two months, was killed by
the terrorists leaving behind his pregnant wife Geeta.*
*-*
*The second part highlighted the misery of a father, who suggested his
daughters to commit suicide in view of the growing exploitation of women in
Kashmir. The last part showcased the plight of a woman crying for help to
save her husband's life who fell prey to the terrorism. *
**
*Entire piece can be read with pictures at -
http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/*
**
*On behalf of Roots In Kashmir <http://www.rootsinkashmir.org/>*
**
*Aditya Raj Kaul*
*New Delhi*

From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 00:56:02 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 00:56:02 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
	<f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>

As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many political ups
and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain support
and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this goons who
keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do so they raise
a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still.

It is quite evident in this particular case that some left oriented faculty
members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I mean,
everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are here talking about a
Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book.

We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we
recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few hundred
more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a change
concentrate on the original source while studying history in an institution
rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.

In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These
Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to create hype out
of this and get cheap publicity.

They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the religious
sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. What ABVP did was
still peaceful. If it would have been something against Prophet Mohhamad
then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and the so called
intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire state is sad. I
dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it cool to be with
communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. etc...

God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures.

P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email.

Regards
Aditya Raj Kaul


On 3/1/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on
> Translation
> A. K. Ramanujan
> How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some
> Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have
> there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is
> one.
> One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When
> it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared
> into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet.
> Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me."
> Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power
> to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing.
> So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole.
> He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld.
> There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from
> above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The
> King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat
> animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with
> his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do.
> While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on
> the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him.
> They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want
> anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?"
> "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk."
> Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are
> talking, his head should be cut off."
> "It will be done," said Rama.
> Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman
> had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than
> Laksmana,
> ________________________________________
> ― 23 ―
> so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to
> enter," he ordered.
> Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared
> and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is
> Rama?"
> Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's
> important."
> "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must
> go in, right now."
> Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you in."
> "Go in and ask then."
> "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait."
> "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire
> kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra.
> Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this
> hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things
> living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die."
> So he went right in.
> Rama asked him, "What's the matter?"
> "Visvamitra is here."
> "Send him in."
> So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end.
> Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in
> the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now
> he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's
> all they wanted to say.
> Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head."
> Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why
> should I cut off your head?"
> Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm
> your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your
> wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave."
> Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His
> time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared
> in the flowing waters.
> When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers,
> Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his
> twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu.
> All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally
> taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama.
> "Rama Rama Rama . . ."
> Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?"
> "Hanuman."
> "Hanuman? Why have you come here?"
> ________________________________________
> ― 24 ―
> "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it."
> The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands
> of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to
> Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take
> it."
> They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said
> Hanuman, shaking his head.
> The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are
> rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find
> Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of
> Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep
> them. Now you can go."
> So Hanuman left.
> This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there
> is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their
> influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five
> hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in
> which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese,
> Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri,
> Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit,
> Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of
> Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have
> hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone
> contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various
> narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas
> or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays,
> dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk
> traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must
> be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and
> shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2]
> Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred
> tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth
> century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata ,
> because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning
> under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada
> kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous
> previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for
> myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a
> story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions
> relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed.
> Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas
> Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have
> come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or
> variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that
> there is an invariant, an original or
> ________________________________________
> ― 25 ―
> Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most
> prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always
> Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another.
> It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The
> tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and
> texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for
> example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas
> (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ;
> they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama),
> Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of
> Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki
> also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and
> kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the
> English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to
> the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be
> the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different.
> Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the
> style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be
> vastly different.
> Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same
> point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first
> book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the
> first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both
> narrate the story of Ahalya.
> The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki
> To read more , please click:
>
>
> http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant <ravikant at sarai.net> wrote:
> > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of
> the
> >  violence in DU.
> >
> >  Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many
> >  Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also
> the
> >  follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas
> >
> >  http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/
> >
> >  On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008)
> >  by RAVIKANT
> >
> >  http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/
> >
> >  You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of
> vandalism and
> >  the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also seen
> >  reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in
> Delhi
> >  University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty
> and
> >  reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just
> because
> >  ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the
> text in
> >  question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and
> Three
> >  Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula
> Richman:
> >  Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia
> (OUP;
> >  1991.)
> >  You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over
> this
> >  for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure
> on the
> >  department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly
> a soft
> >  target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the controversy
> to
> >  kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to
> embarass
> >  the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter.
> The PMO
> >  was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy.
> >  But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of
> media
> >  involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the
> >  delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus
> which
> >  was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus
> making, etc.
> >  So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat
> Sharma
> >  of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and
> yet
> >  wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to
> debate
> >  the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not read
> the
> >  text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept
> >  highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something
> about
> >  it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not a
> >  surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the
> camera
> >  crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less
> >  surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played the
> >  footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into
> action
> >  and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging.
> >  I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always
> intrigued by
> >  my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other
> uttered by
> >  some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after
> bath but
> >  I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he
> referred to
> >  Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had
> a
> >  small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins,
> who
> >  earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the
> >  Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was held
> every
> >  now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing 'hare
> ram
> >  hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna
> krishna
> >  hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The
> >  important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather
> classy and
> >  genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the
> >  Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have
> been
> >  transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not have
> any
> >  memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding the
> >  non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came
> alive to
> >  me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of
> Sundarkand: the
> >  classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different
> ways
> >  some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed
> the
> >  Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP
> would
> >  want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they
> will go
> >  mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's Khattar
> Kaka.
> >  Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much as
> they
> >  should!
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
> >  reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >  Critiques & Collaborations
> >  To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> >  To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >  List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
>
> --
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

From taraprakash at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 02:45:06 2008
From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:15:06 -0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net><f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash>

Now, let me remind the discussion here was about Delhi University. It was in 
Delhi University that ABVP goons (sorry for using a redundant word) So as I 
was saying, it was in Delhi University where ABVP raised a nonissue after 
losing the DUSU elections consistently to NSUI.
Please enlighten us about a DU where "they (SFI and AISA) raise a non-issue 
so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still." I am, of course, 
more interested in the campus being brought to stand still part of the 
sentence.

Also kindly explain what yardsticks can be used to measure originality of a 
work of art. May be you can suggest which of the "two original ramayanas" 
should be respected more? As somebody who has read both, and many others 
which according to you are not original, I am intrigued by Tulsidas version 
where Sita has been depicted as a submissive woman, unlike Valmiki's Sita 
who is more capable of challenging her husband on certain issues (or 
non-issues, depending on which side of the divide you are).


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History


> As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many political ups
> and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain support
> and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this goons who
> keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do so they 
> raise
> a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still.
>
> It is quite evident in this particular case that some left oriented 
> faculty
> members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I mean,
> everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are here talking about 
> a
> Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book.
>
> We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we
> recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few 
> hundred
> more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a 
> change
> concentrate on the original source while studying history in an 
> institution
> rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
>
> In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These
> Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to create hype out
> of this and get cheap publicity.
>
> They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the 
> religious
> sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. What ABVP did 
> was
> still peaceful. If it would have been something against Prophet Mohhamad
> then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and the so 
> called
> intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire state is sad. 
> I
> dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it cool to be 
> with
> communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. etc...
>
> God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures.
>
> P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email.
>
> Regards
> Aditya Raj Kaul
>
>
> On 3/1/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on
>> Translation
>> A. K. Ramanujan
>> How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some
>> Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have
>> there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is
>> one.
>> One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When
>> it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared
>> into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet.
>> Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me."
>> Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power
>> to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing.
>> So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole.
>> He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld.
>> There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from
>> above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The
>> King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat
>> animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with
>> his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do.
>> While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on
>> the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him.
>> They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want
>> anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?"
>> "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk."
>> Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are
>> talking, his head should be cut off."
>> "It will be done," said Rama.
>> Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman
>> had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than
>> Laksmana,
>> ________________________________________
>> ― 23 ―
>> so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to
>> enter," he ordered.
>> Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared
>> and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is
>> Rama?"
>> Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's
>> important."
>> "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must
>> go in, right now."
>> Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you in."
>> "Go in and ask then."
>> "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait."
>> "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire
>> kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra.
>> Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this
>> hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things
>> living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die."
>> So he went right in.
>> Rama asked him, "What's the matter?"
>> "Visvamitra is here."
>> "Send him in."
>> So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end.
>> Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in
>> the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now
>> he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's
>> all they wanted to say.
>> Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head."
>> Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why
>> should I cut off your head?"
>> Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm
>> your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your
>> wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave."
>> Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His
>> time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared
>> in the flowing waters.
>> When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers,
>> Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his
>> twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu.
>> All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally
>> taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama.
>> "Rama Rama Rama . . ."
>> Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?"
>> "Hanuman."
>> "Hanuman? Why have you come here?"
>> ________________________________________
>> ― 24 ―
>> "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it."
>> The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands
>> of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to
>> Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take
>> it."
>> They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said
>> Hanuman, shaking his head.
>> The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are
>> rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find
>> Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of
>> Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep
>> them. Now you can go."
>> So Hanuman left.
>> This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there
>> is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their
>> influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five
>> hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in
>> which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese,
>> Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri,
>> Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit,
>> Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of
>> Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have
>> hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone
>> contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various
>> narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas
>> or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays,
>> dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk
>> traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must
>> be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and
>> shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2]
>> Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred
>> tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth
>> century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata ,
>> because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning
>> under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada
>> kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous
>> previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for
>> myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a
>> story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions
>> relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed.
>> Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas
>> Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have
>> come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or
>> variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that
>> there is an invariant, an original or
>> ________________________________________
>> ― 25 ―
>> Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most
>> prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always
>> Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another.
>> It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The
>> tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and
>> texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for
>> example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas
>> (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ;
>> they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama),
>> Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of
>> Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki
>> also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and
>> kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the
>> English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to
>> the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be
>> the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different.
>> Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the
>> style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be
>> vastly different.
>> Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same
>> point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first
>> book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the
>> first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both
>> narrate the story of Ahalya.
>> The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki
>> To read more , please click:
>>
>>
>> http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant <ravikant at sarai.net> wrote:
>> > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of
>> the
>> >  violence in DU.
>> >
>> >  Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many
>> >  Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also
>> the
>> >  follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas
>> >
>> >  http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/
>> >
>> >  On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008)
>> >  by RAVIKANT
>> >
>> >  http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/
>> >
>> >  You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of
>> vandalism and
>> >  the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also 
>> > seen
>> >  reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in
>> Delhi
>> >  University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty
>> and
>> >  reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just
>> because
>> >  ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the
>> text in
>> >  question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and
>> Three
>> >  Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula
>> Richman:
>> >  Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia
>> (OUP;
>> >  1991.)
>> >  You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over
>> this
>> >  for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure
>> on the
>> >  department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly
>> a soft
>> >  target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the controversy
>> to
>> >  kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to
>> embarass
>> >  the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter.
>> The PMO
>> >  was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy.
>> >  But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of
>> media
>> >  involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the
>> >  delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus
>> which
>> >  was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus
>> making, etc.
>> >  So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat
>> Sharma
>> >  of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and
>> yet
>> >  wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to
>> debate
>> >  the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not 
>> > read
>> the
>> >  text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept
>> >  highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something
>> about
>> >  it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not 
>> > a
>> >  surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the
>> camera
>> >  crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less
>> >  surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played 
>> > the
>> >  footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into
>> action
>> >  and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging.
>> >  I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always
>> intrigued by
>> >  my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other
>> uttered by
>> >  some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after
>> bath but
>> >  I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he
>> referred to
>> >  Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had
>> a
>> >  small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins,
>> who
>> >  earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the
>> >  Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was 
>> > held
>> every
>> >  now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing 'hare
>> ram
>> >  hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna
>> krishna
>> >  hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The
>> >  important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather
>> classy and
>> >  genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the
>> >  Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have
>> been
>> >  transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not 
>> > have
>> any
>> >  memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding 
>> > the
>> >  non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came
>> alive to
>> >  me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of
>> Sundarkand: the
>> >  classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different
>> ways
>> >  some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed
>> the
>> >  Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP
>> would
>> >  want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they
>> will go
>> >  mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's 
>> > Khattar
>> Kaka.
>> >  Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much as
>> they
>> >  should!
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________
>> >  reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >  Critiques & Collaborations
>> >  To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> >  To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> >  List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> 


From indersalim at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 08:55:03 2008
From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:55:03 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
Message-ID: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>

    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht (
    Crematorium in Delhi)

    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram

    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.

    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to
         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed,
          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.

    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .

    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to Raju)

    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead (
             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram Ram
            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.

    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
             how are we Ravana then.

    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )

    Ajay: He too is Gandu

    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.

    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.

    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't
            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
over there.

    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.

    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
              sleep with was kidnapped once.

    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time to ask
          all these questions.

    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
            fucks the kidnapped girl.

    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband and God
          Rama.

    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
            think who would have come to rescue her.

    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.

    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
possession of evil
             Ravana.

    Ajay: And he really banished her?

    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.

    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.

    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita

    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't
            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
This world is
            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.

    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...

    (2)

    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
    artificially with a deeper question on desire.

    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and
    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just
    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area.

    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.

    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called
    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
    is a meaningful time pass.

    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I
    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then
    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone
    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
    wisest of all.

    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a
    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
    but sooner they will cease to be.

    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps,
    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is
    that true?

     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so
    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the
    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.

    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes
    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this
    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need
    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe that
    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,
    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors.
    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their
    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word
    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85

    ( to be continued..

From prem.cnt at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 09:57:52 2008
From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:57:52 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
	<f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>

On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we
> recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few
> hundred
> more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a
> change
> concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
> institution
> rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.


To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the reason why
this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies that there is
a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many secondary
histories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior and ignorable.

Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It cannot be
merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief or a
historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the argument
that was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid.

Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put
forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical, rather than
epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History cannot be
ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be categorised as
archive, or dismissed as non-archive.

From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 09:58:51 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:58:51 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e391cca88881.47c8097a@vsnl.net>
	<f0c54b8d0803010102r59b07046t9f4f69fe3cb3b79f@mail.gmail.com>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
	<011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
Message-ID: <6353c690803022028p6ee1d179k235ecaf4a3eb77a8@mail.gmail.com>

Sir, I would surely answer the first part of your question which I'm more
than capable of answering. As I do that specialise in Ramayana or do not
have much knowledge about it; I won't dare to challenge you on the second
part.

Delhi University based Political Parties which includes NSUI, ABVP, SFI etc
hardly fight elections etc. on student issues or have political debates.
They merely use money & muscle power and caste plays a very important role
in it.

Regarding your allegation that ABVP raised a nonissue after losing the DUSU
Elections; let me enligten you more on the game being played by NSUI with
help of their masters.

1. In 2007, DUSU Elections suddenly a couple of days back Lyndoh Committe
Report was forced on to the University which was notproper or legally or
morally right. It was quite evident that it was pre-planned and some
University authority had played misschief. After all money and power makes
all the difference. The only party which suffered because of this was ABVP;
thus making ahuge victory for NSUI whose candidates are no less goons.

2. In last 3 months these have been instances where NSUI has been involved
with improper behaviour which should have called on them some Police action.
But their masters protected them always. Amrita Bahari the President of DUSU
currently slapped an IAS ranking Police Inspector; threw his cap in air and
tore his uniform and the stars on it; in protest of some case. Was any
action taken against Amrita ? DUSU Vice-President Devraj Tehlan was involved
with beating the principal of Shivaji College and PG-DAV College in last one
month and also damaging public property. Why again the authorities kept
silent ?

3. In 2007 DUSU Elections again, there was sting operation conducted by
CNN-IBN on Devraj Tehlan where he was shown drunk and he was narrating what
all ill methods are used to get votes in DU. He was still allowed to contest
and he came in power finally. The University and Police both kept mum.

4. Now, le me come to your SFI and AISA. As AISA is hardly seen around
campus, I wouldn't like commenting much on them. They hardly work; rather
they are more than happy only in screaming and pasting posters across
university.

5. In recent DU History Dept fiasco; the day after the incident; there was a
protest taken out by the left lobby in the campus. The classes of History,
Political Science and English mainly were disrupted in many colleges across
the University. I atleast know of Hansraj College, Ramjas College, Hindu
College, St. Stephens and a few more whose teachers just didn't take the
class and literally forced students to take part in the protest without
understanding the issue in greater length. It surely brough the campus to
stand still. I could surely witness that.

6. A few months back everbody must be aware of the much hyped IP Molestation
Case which shook the entire University. A large protest (one of the largest
in DU History) was taken out by some NGO's, students and IP College; almost
2000 people participated in it. Just a day after this the SFI lobby was at
its job; they brainwashed the IP Students against all the NGO's and even the
media. Strangely, IP Union members stopped talking to the media and the
NGO's. SFI again wanted cheap publicity out of it; but results are in front
of us; the case is still on; SFI failed to get justice or even raise
awareness in the case. They rather again forced students to miss important
classes.

7. There are delibrate attempts made at various points to distort history
for the sake of those few Anti-Hindu's. Lets atleast not create a religious
divide in the campus. Students should be given a neutral perspective and not
favouring a particular side. Let them decide what is right and wrong. I know
very well how the senior faculty members ask students to just stay away from
a particular religious ideology and they channelise their energies towards
anti-establishment work. Though till date these so called TEACHERS haven't
been successful; its surely a dangereous trend.

I'm not a part of ABVP, NSUI or SFI; I neither support them. All three of
them have goons in it making the atmosphere of Delhi University unhealthy. I
had tried by bit by initiating a group United Students back in 2006. You may
learn more about it on www.unitedstudents.in

I don't think I've much to say now.

Thanks
Aditya Raj Kaul


On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now, let me remind the discussion here was about Delhi University. It was
> in
> Delhi University that ABVP goons (sorry for using a redundant word) So as
> I
> was saying, it was in Delhi University where ABVP raised a nonissue after
> losing the DUSU elections consistently to NSUI.
> Please enlighten us about a DU where "they (SFI and AISA) raise a
> non-issue
> so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still." I am, of course,
> more interested in the campus being brought to stand still part of the
> sentence.
>
> Also kindly explain what yardsticks can be used to measure originality of
> a
> work of art. May be you can suggest which of the "two original ramayanas"
> should be respected more? As somebody who has read both, and many others
> which according to you are not original, I am intrigued by Tulsidas
> version
> where Sita has been depicted as a submissive woman, unlike Valmiki's Sita
> who is more capable of challenging her husband on certain issues (or
> non-issues, depending on which side of the divide you are).
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>
>
> > As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many political
> ups
> > and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain
> support
> > and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this goons who
> > keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do so they
> > raise
> > a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still.
> >
> > It is quite evident in this particular case that some left oriented
> > faculty
> > members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I mean,
> > everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are here talking
> about
> > a
> > Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book.
> >
> > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we
> > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few
> > hundred
> > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a
> > change
> > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
> > institution
> > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
> >
> > In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These
> > Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to create hype
> out
> > of this and get cheap publicity.
> >
> > They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the
> > religious
> > sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. What ABVP did
> > was
> > still peaceful. If it would have been something against Prophet Mohhamad
> > then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and the so
> > called
> > intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire state is
> sad.
> > I
> > dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it cool to be
> > with
> > communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. etc...
> >
> > God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures.
> >
> > P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email.
> >
> > Regards
> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >
> >
> > On 3/1/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on
> >> Translation
> >> A. K. Ramanujan
> >> How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some
> >> Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have
> >> there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is
> >> one.
> >> One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When
> >> it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared
> >> into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet.
> >> Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me."
> >> Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power
> >> to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing.
> >> So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole.
> >> He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld.
> >> There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from
> >> above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The
> >> King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat
> >> animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with
> >> his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do.
> >> While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on
> >> the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him.
> >> They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want
> >> anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?"
> >> "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk."
> >> Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are
> >> talking, his head should be cut off."
> >> "It will be done," said Rama.
> >> Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman
> >> had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than
> >> Laksmana,
> >> ________________________________________
> >> ― 23 ―
> >> so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to
> >> enter," he ordered.
> >> Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared
> >> and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is
> >> Rama?"
> >> Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's
> >> important."
> >> "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must
> >> go in, right now."
> >> Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you
> in."
> >> "Go in and ask then."
> >> "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait."
> >> "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire
> >> kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra.
> >> Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this
> >> hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things
> >> living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die."
> >> So he went right in.
> >> Rama asked him, "What's the matter?"
> >> "Visvamitra is here."
> >> "Send him in."
> >> So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end.
> >> Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in
> >> the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now
> >> he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's
> >> all they wanted to say.
> >> Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head."
> >> Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why
> >> should I cut off your head?"
> >> Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm
> >> your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your
> >> wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave."
> >> Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His
> >> time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared
> >> in the flowing waters.
> >> When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers,
> >> Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his
> >> twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu.
> >> All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally
> >> taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama.
> >> "Rama Rama Rama . . ."
> >> Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?"
> >> "Hanuman."
> >> "Hanuman? Why have you come here?"
> >> ________________________________________
> >> ― 24 ―
> >> "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it."
> >> The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands
> >> of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to
> >> Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take
> >> it."
> >> They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said
> >> Hanuman, shaking his head.
> >> The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are
> >> rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find
> >> Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of
> >> Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep
> >> them. Now you can go."
> >> So Hanuman left.
> >> This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there
> >> is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their
> >> influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five
> >> hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in
> >> which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese,
> >> Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri,
> >> Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit,
> >> Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of
> >> Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have
> >> hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone
> >> contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various
> >> narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas
> >> or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays,
> >> dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk
> >> traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must
> >> be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and
> >> shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2]
> >> Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred
> >> tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth
> >> century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata ,
> >> because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning
> >> under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada
> >> kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous
> >> previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for
> >> myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a
> >> story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions
> >> relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed.
> >> Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas
> >> Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have
> >> come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or
> >> variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that
> >> there is an invariant, an original or
> >> ________________________________________
> >> ― 25 ―
> >> Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most
> >> prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always
> >> Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another.
> >> It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The
> >> tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and
> >> texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for
> >> example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas
> >> (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ;
> >> they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama),
> >> Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of
> >> Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki
> >> also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and
> >> kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the
> >> English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to
> >> the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be
> >> the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different.
> >> Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the
> >> style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be
> >> vastly different.
> >> Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same
> >> point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first
> >> book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the
> >> first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both
> >> narrate the story of Ahalya.
> >> The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki
> >> To read more , please click:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant <ravikant at sarai.net> wrote:
> >> > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of
> >> the
> >> >  violence in DU.
> >> >
> >> >  Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book
> Many
> >> >  Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and
> also
> >> the
> >> >  follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas
> >> >
> >> >  http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/
> >> >
> >> >  On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008)
> >> >  by RAVIKANT
> >> >
> >> >  http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/
> >> >
> >> >  You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of
> >> vandalism and
> >> >  the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also
> >> > seen
> >> >  reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in
> >> Delhi
> >> >  University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the
> guilty
> >> and
> >> >  reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just
> >> because
> >> >  ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the
> >> text in
> >> >  question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples
> and
> >> Three
> >> >  Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula
> >> Richman:
> >> >  Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia
> >> (OUP;
> >> >  1991.)
> >> >  You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU
> over
> >> this
> >> >  for something like three months. They have been trying to put
> pressure
> >> on the
> >> >  department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite
> clearly
> >> a soft
> >> >  target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the
> controversy
> >> to
> >> >  kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to
> >> embarass
> >> >  the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter.
> >> The PMO
> >> >  was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy.
> >> >  But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of
> >> media
> >> >  involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with
> the
> >> >  delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus
> >> which
> >> >  was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus
> >> making, etc.
> >> >  So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago,
> Rajat
> >> Sharma
> >> >  of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and
> >> yet
> >> >  wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others
> to
> >> debate
> >> >  the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not
> >> > read
> >> the
> >> >  text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept
> >> >  highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something
> >> about
> >> >  it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is
> not
> >> > a
> >> >  surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for
> the
> >> camera
> >> >  crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even
> less
> >> >  surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played
> >> > the
> >> >  footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung
> into
> >> action
> >> >  and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging.
> >> >  I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always
> >> intrigued by
> >> >  my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other
> >> uttered by
> >> >  some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after
> >> bath but
> >> >  I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he
> >> referred to
> >> >  Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village
> had
> >> a
> >> >  small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of
> Brahmins,
> >> who
> >> >  earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting
> the
> >> >  Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was
> >> > held
> >> every
> >> >  now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing
> 'hare
> >> ram
> >> >  hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna
> >> krishna
> >> >  hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days.
> The
> >> >  important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather
> >> classy and
> >> >  genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into
> the
> >> >  Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have
> >> been
> >> >  transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not
> >> > have
> >> any
> >> >  memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding
> >> > the
> >> >  non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came
> >> alive to
> >> >  me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of
> >> Sundarkand: the
> >> >  classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different
> >> ways
> >> >  some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely
> remixed
> >> the
> >> >  Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP
> >> would
> >> >  want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they
> >> will go
> >> >  mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's
> >> > Khattar
> >> Kaka.
> >> >  Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much
> as
> >> they
> >> >  should!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _________________________________________
> >> >  reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> >  Critiques & Collaborations
> >> >  To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> >  To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> >  List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>

From pkray11 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 10:10:30 2008
From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:10:30 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
Message-ID: <98f331e00803022040n47e4c09cvf24accb417c88742@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to thank Ravikant for informing us regarding the availablity of
the essay by Dr Ramanujan on the net along with the wonderful book in which
the essay is collected. I suggest to mail the link to people at large.

Prakash

From mrsg at vsnl.com  Mon Mar  3 13:03:12 2008
From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:03:12 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>

Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju


>    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht (
>    Crematorium in Delhi)
>
>    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram
>
>    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
>
>    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to
>         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed,
>          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
>
>    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
>             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
>
>    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to
> Raju)
>
>    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead (
>             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram
> Ram
>            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
>
>    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
>             how are we Ravana then.
>
>    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
>             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
>
>    Ajay: He too is Gandu
>
>    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
>
>    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
>            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.
>
>    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't
>            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
> over there.
>
>    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
>            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
>
>    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
>              sleep with was kidnapped once.
>
>    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
>           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time
> to ask
>          all these questions.
>
>    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
>            fucks the kidnapped girl.
>
>    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
>            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband
> and God
>          Rama.
>
>    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
>            think who would have come to rescue her.
>
>    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
>
>    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
>             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
> possession of evil
>             Ravana.
>
>    Ajay: And he really banished her?
>
>    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
>
>    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
>
>    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
>
>    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't
>            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
> This world is
>            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
>
>    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...
>
>    (2)
>
>    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
>    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
>    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
>    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
>    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
>
>    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and
>    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just
>    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
>    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area.
>
>    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
>
>    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
>    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called
>    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
>    is a meaningful time pass.
>
>    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I
>    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then
>    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
>    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
>    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone
>    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
>    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
>    wisest of all.
>
>    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
>    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a
>    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
>    but sooner they will cease to be.
>
>    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
>    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
>    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
>    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps,
>    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is
>    that true?
>
>     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so
>    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
>    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
>    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
>    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the
>    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
>
>    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes
>    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
>    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
>    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this
>    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
>    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need
>    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
>    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
>    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe that
>    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
>    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,
>    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors.
>    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their
>    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
>    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word
>    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85
>
>    ( to be continued..
> _________________________________________
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From radhikarajen at vsnl.net  Mon Mar  3 14:29:12 2008
From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:59:12 +0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <6353c690803022028p6ee1d179k235ecaf4a3eb77a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<"e3 91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<"47e122a70803010633q5 99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com>
	<"6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193 757779ec0"@mail.gmail.com>
	<011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
	<6353c690803022028p6ee1d179k235ecaf4a3eb77a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e1a1c06c11f04.47cc0430@vsnl.net>

Hi, this message should reply all those queries about the political parties making bad use of students who are there to study for their life, being used for the gains of the politics. ?
 None of the political parties can take a morally holier than thou stand in this matter.
Only issue here is it has become a fashionable issue to deride the faith of majority, see that this majority is kept always divided so that anti socials can have rule on majority with minority of goons. ?
Regards,

----- Original Message -----
From: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 10:00 am
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
To: reader-list at sarai.net

> Sir, I would surely answer the first part of your question which 
> I'm more
> than capable of answering. As I do that specialise in Ramayana or 
> do not
> have much knowledge about it; I won't dare to challenge you on the 
> secondpart.
> 
> Delhi University based Political Parties which includes NSUI, 
> ABVP, SFI etc
> hardly fight elections etc. on student issues or have political 
> debates.They merely use money & muscle power and caste plays a 
> very important role
> in it.
> 
> Regarding your allegation that ABVP raised a nonissue after losing 
> the DUSU
> Elections; let me enligten you more on the game being played by 
> NSUI with
> help of their masters.
> 
> 1. In 2007, DUSU Elections suddenly a couple of days back Lyndoh 
> CommitteReport was forced on to the University which was notproper 
> or legally or
> morally right. It was quite evident that it was pre-planned and some
> University authority had played misschief. After all money and 
> power makes
> all the difference. The only party which suffered because of this 
> was ABVP;
> thus making ahuge victory for NSUI whose candidates are no less goons.
> 
> 2. In last 3 months these have been instances where NSUI has been 
> involvedwith improper behaviour which should have called on them 
> some Police action.
> But their masters protected them always. Amrita Bahari the 
> President of DUSU
> currently slapped an IAS ranking Police Inspector; threw his cap 
> in air and
> tore his uniform and the stars on it; in protest of some case. Was any
> action taken against Amrita ? DUSU Vice-President Devraj Tehlan 
> was involved
> with beating the principal of Shivaji College and PG-DAV College 
> in last one
> month and also damaging public property. Why again the authorities 
> keptsilent ?
> 
> 3. In 2007 DUSU Elections again, there was sting operation 
> conducted by
> CNN-IBN on Devraj Tehlan where he was shown drunk and he was 
> narrating what
> all ill methods are used to get votes in DU. He was still allowed 
> to contest
> and he came in power finally. The University and Police both kept mum.
> 
> 4. Now, le me come to your SFI and AISA. As AISA is hardly seen around
> campus, I wouldn't like commenting much on them. They hardly work; 
> ratherthey are more than happy only in screaming and pasting 
> posters across
> university.
> 
> 5. In recent DU History Dept fiasco; the day after the incident; 
> there was a
> protest taken out by the left lobby in the campus. The classes of 
> History,Political Science and English mainly were disrupted in 
> many colleges across
> the University. I atleast know of Hansraj College, Ramjas College, 
> HinduCollege, St. Stephens and a few more whose teachers just 
> didn't take the
> class and literally forced students to take part in the protest 
> withoutunderstanding the issue in greater length. It surely brough 
> the campus to
> stand still. I could surely witness that.
> 
> 6. A few months back everbody must be aware of the much hyped IP 
> MolestationCase which shook the entire University. A large protest 
> (one of the largest
> in DU History) was taken out by some NGO's, students and IP 
> College; almost
> 2000 people participated in it. Just a day after this the SFI 
> lobby was at
> its job; they brainwashed the IP Students against all the NGO's 
> and even the
> media. Strangely, IP Union members stopped talking to the media 
> and the
> NGO's. SFI again wanted cheap publicity out of it; but results are 
> in front
> of us; the case is still on; SFI failed to get justice or even raise
> awareness in the case. They rather again forced students to miss 
> importantclasses.
> 
> 7. There are delibrate attempts made at various points to distort 
> historyfor the sake of those few Anti-Hindu's. Lets atleast not 
> create a religious
> divide in the campus. Students should be given a neutral 
> perspective and not
> favouring a particular side. Let them decide what is right and 
> wrong. I know
> very well how the senior faculty members ask students to just stay 
> away from
> a particular religious ideology and they channelise their energies 
> towardsanti-establishment work. Though till date these so called 
> TEACHERS haven't
> been successful; its surely a dangereous trend.
> 
> I'm not a part of ABVP, NSUI or SFI; I neither support them. All 
> three of
> them have goons in it making the atmosphere of Delhi University 
> unhealthy. I
> had tried by bit by initiating a group United Students back in 
> 2006. You may
> learn more about it on www.unitedstudents.in
> 
> I don't think I've much to say now.
> 
> Thanks
> Aditya Raj Kaul
> 
> 
> On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Now, let me remind the discussion here was about Delhi 
> University. It was
> > in
> > Delhi University that ABVP goons (sorry for using a redundant 
> word) So as
> > I
> > was saying, it was in Delhi University where ABVP raised a 
> nonissue after
> > losing the DUSU elections consistently to NSUI.
> > Please enlighten us about a DU where "they (SFI and AISA) raise a
> > non-issue
> > so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still." I am, 
> of course,
> > more interested in the campus being brought to stand still part 
> of the
> > sentence.
> >
> > Also kindly explain what yardsticks can be used to measure 
> originality of
> > a
> > work of art. May be you can suggest which of the "two original 
> ramayanas"> should be respected more? As somebody who has read 
> both, and many others
> > which according to you are not original, I am intrigued by Tulsidas
> > version
> > where Sita has been depicted as a submissive woman, unlike 
> Valmiki's Sita
> > who is more capable of challenging her husband on certain issues (or
> > non-issues, depending on which side of the divide you are).
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> > To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> >
> >
> > > As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many 
> political> ups
> > > and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain
> > support
> > > and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this 
> goons who
> > > keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do 
> so they
> > > raise
> > > a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand 
> still.> >
> > > It is quite evident in this particular case that some left 
> oriented> > faculty
> > > members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I 
> mean,> > everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are 
> here talking
> > about
> > > a
> > > Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book.
> > >
> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's 
> that we
> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe 
> a few
> > > hundred
> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, 
> lets for a
> > > change
> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
> > > institution
> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
> > >
> > > In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These
> > > Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to 
> create hype
> > out
> > > of this and get cheap publicity.
> > >
> > > They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the
> > > religious
> > > sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. 
> What ABVP did
> > > was
> > > still peaceful. If it would have been something against 
> Prophet Mohhamad
> > > then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and 
> the so
> > > called
> > > intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire 
> state is
> > sad.
> > > I
> > > dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it 
> cool to be
> > > with
> > > communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. 
> etc...> >
> > > God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures.
> > >
> > > P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/1/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on
> > >> Translation
> > >> A. K. Ramanujan
> > >> How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the 
> end of some
> > >> Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas 
> have> >> there been? And there are stories that answer the 
> question. Here is
> > >> one.
> > >> One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell 
> off. When
> > >> it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and 
> disappeared> >> into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, 
> Hanuman, was at his feet.
> > >> Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me."
> > >> Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had 
> the power
> > >> to become the smallest of the small and larger than the 
> largest thing.
> > >> So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole.
> > >> He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld.
> > >> There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's 
> fallen from
> > >> above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter 
> (thali ). The
> > >> King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes 
> to eat
> > >> animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, 
> along with
> > >> his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do.
> > >> While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his 
> throne on
> > >> the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to 
> see him.
> > >> They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We 
> don't want
> > >> anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?"
> > >> "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk."
> > >> Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are
> > >> talking, his head should be cut off."
> > >> "It will be done," said Rama.
> > >> Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? 
> Hanuman> >> had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one 
> more than
> > >> Laksmana,
> > >> ________________________________________
> > >> ― 23 ―
> > >> so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow 
> anyone to
> > >> enter," he ordered.
> > >> Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra 
> appeared> >> and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. 
> Tell me, where is
> > >> Rama?"
> > >> Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some 
> people. It's
> > >> important."
> > >> "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said 
> Visvamitra. "I must
> > >> go in, right now."
> > >> Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can 
> let you
> > in."
> > >> "Go in and ask then."
> > >> "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait."
> > >> "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the 
> entire> >> kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra.
> > >> Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't 
> go, this
> > >> hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, 
> all things
> > >> living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die."
> > >> So he went right in.
> > >> Rama asked him, "What's the matter?"
> > >> "Visvamitra is here."
> > >> =22Send him in."
> > >> So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to 
> an end.
> > >> Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, 
> "Your work in
> > >> the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama 
> must now
> > >> he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." 
> That's> >> all they wanted to say.
> > >> Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head."
> > >> Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was 
> left. So why
> > >> should I cut off your head?"
> > >> Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off 
> because I'm
> > >> your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't 
> spare your
> > >> wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will 
> leave."> >> Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom 
> Visnu sleeps. His
> > >> time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and 
> disappeared> >> in the flowing waters.
> > >> When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his 
> followers,> >> Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for 
> the coronation of his
> > >> twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu.
> > >> All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was 
> finally> >> taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the 
> name of Rama.
> > >> "Rama Rama Rama . . ."
> > >> Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?"
> > >> "Hanuman."
> > >> "Hanuman? Why have you come here?"
> > >> ________________________________________
> > >> ― 24 ―
> > >> "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it."
> > >> The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were 
> thousands> >> of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king 
> brought the platter to
> > >> Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring 
> and take
> > >> it."
> > >> They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it 
> is," said
> > >> Hanuman, shaking his head.
> > >> The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as 
> there are
> > >> rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not 
> find> >> Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an 
> incarnation of
> > >> Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them 
> and keep
> > >> them. Now you can go."
> > >> So Hanuman left.
> > >> This story is usually told to suggest that for every such 
> Rama there
> > >> is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their
> > >> influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five
> > >> hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of 
> languages in
> > >> which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese,
> > >> Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, 
> Kashmiri,> >> Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, 
> Prakrit, Sanskrit,
> > >> Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say 
> nothing of
> > >> Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these 
> languages have
> > >> hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone
> > >> contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various
> > >> narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic 
> compositions, puranas
> > >> or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays,
> > >> dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical 
> and folk
> > >> traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To 
> these must
> > >> be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and
> > >> shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian 
> cultures.[2]> >> Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , 
> counted three hundred
> > >> tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the 
> fourteenth> >> century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to 
> write a Mahabharata ,
> > >> because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth 
> groaning> >> under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu 
> phaniraya ramayanada
> > >> kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to 
> numerous> >> previous translators and scholars, I would like to 
> sort out for
> > >> myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings 
> of a
> > >> story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions
> > >> relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, 
> transposed.> >> Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas
> > >> Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one 
> another. I have
> > >> come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or
> > >> variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that
> > >> there is an invariant, an original or
> > >> ________________________________________
> > >> ― 25 ―
> > >> Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest 
> and most
> > >> prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always
> > >> Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another.
> > >> It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The
> > >> tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story 
> (ramakatha ) and
> > >> texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or 
> Krttivasa, for
> > >> example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas
> > >> (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title 
> Ramayana ;
> > >> they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of 
> Rama),> >> Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien 
> (The Story of
> > >> Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told 
> by Valmiki
> > >> also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and
> > >> kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit 
> , or the
> > >> English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also 
> analogous to
> > >> the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The 
> story may be
> > >> the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly 
> different.> >> Even the structure and sequence of events may be 
> the same, but the
> > >> style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the 
> import―may be
> > >> vastly different.
> > >> Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at 
> the same
> > >> point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the 
> first> >> book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the 
> second from the
> > >> first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both
> > >> narrate the story of Ahalya.
> > >> The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki
> > >> To read more , please click:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > 
> http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol> >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant <ravikant at sarai.net> 
> wrote:> >> > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as 
> it had images of
> > >> the
> > >> >  violence in DU.
> > >> >
> > >> >  Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the 
> entire book
> > Many
> > >> >  Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful 
> read, and
> > also
> > >> the
> > >> >  follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas
> > >> >
> > >> >  http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/
> > >> >
> > >> >  On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008)
> > >> >  by RAVIKANT
> > >> >
> > >> >  http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/
> > >> >
> > >> >  You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the 
> act of
> > >> vandalism and
> > >> >  the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must 
> have also
> > >> > seen
> > >> >  reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration 
> yesterday in
> > >> Delhi
> > >> >  University of students and teachers demanding punishment 
> to the
> > guilty
> > >> and
> > >> >  reiterating the pledge that the text should not be 
> expunged just
> > >> because
> > >> >  ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to 
> look up, the
> > >> text in
> > >> >  question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five 
> Examples> and
> > >> Three
> > >> >  Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited 
> by Paula
> > >> Richman:
> > >> >  Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in 
> South Asia
> > >> (OUP;
> > >> >  1991.)
> > >> >  You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger 
> strike in DU
> > over
> > >> this
> > >> >  for something like three months. They have been trying to put
> > pressure
> > >> on the
> > >> >  department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite
> > clearly
> > >> a soft
> > >> >  target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the
> > controversy
> > >> to
> > >> >  kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would 
> be able to
> > >> embarass
> > >> >  the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his 
> daughter.> >> The PMO
> > >> >  was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU 
> controversy.> >> >  But beyond these bare facts, the most 
> interesting story is that of
> > >> media
> > >> >  involvement in the incident. After several rounds of 
> meetings with
> > the
> > >> >  delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw 
> the syllabus
> > >> which
> > >> >  was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the 
> syllabus> >> making, etc.
> > >> >  So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 
> days ago,
> > Rajat
> > >> Sharma
> > >> >  of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and 
> ideas and
> > >> yet
> > >> >  wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar 
> and others
> > to
> > >> debate
> > >> >  the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb 
> had not
> > >> > read
> > >> the
> > >> >  text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat 
> Sharma kept
> > >> >  highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do 
> something> >> about
> > >> >  it. On which he assured that he would look into the 
> matter. It is
> > not
> > >> > a
> > >> >  surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on 
> waiting for
> > the
> > >> camera
> > >> >  crew to arrive before they staged action the day before 
> and even
> > less
> > >> >  surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV 
> that played
> > >> > the
> > >> >  footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels 
> swung> into
> > >> action
> > >> >  and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging.
> > >> >  I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be 
> always> >> intrigued by
> > >> >  my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or 
> the other
> > >> uttered by
> > >> >  some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas 
> everyday after
> > >> bath but
> > >> >  I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each 
> time he
> > >> referred to
> > >> >  Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our 
> village> had
> > >> a
> > >> >  small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of
> > Brahmins,
> > >> who
> > >> >  earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and 
> assisting> the
> > >> >  Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand 
> Kirtan was
> > >> > held
> > >> every
> > >> >  now and then in the village temple and groups took turns 
> singing> 'hare
> > >> ram
> > >> >  hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna 
> krishna> >> krishna
> > >> >  hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a 
> few days.
> > The
> > >> >  important thing to note is that the upper caste group had 
> a rather
> > >> classy and
> > >> >  genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people 
> got into
> > the
> > >> >  Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti 
> seemed to have
> > >> been
> > >> >  transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, 
> I do not
> > >> > have
> > >> any
> > >> >  memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or 
> forbidding> >> > the
> > >> >  non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these 
> memories came
> > >> alive to
> > >> >  me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of
> > >> Sundarkand: the
> > >> >  classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 
> different> >> ways
> > >> >  some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely
> > remixed
> > >> the
> > >> >  Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder 
> what the ABVP
> > >> would
> > >> >  want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am 
> sure they
> > >> will go
> > >> >  mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan 
> Jha's> >> > Khattar
> > >> Kaka.
> > >> >  Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read 
> as much
> > as
> > >> they
> > >> >  should!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > _____=5F___________________________________
> > >> >  reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >> >  Critiques & Collaborations
> > >> >  To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-
> request at sarai.net with
> > >> subscribe in the subject header.
> > >> >  To unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > >> >  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> _________________________________________
> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > >> subscribe in the subject header.
> > >> To unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> list 
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

From radhikarajen at vsnl.net  Mon Mar  3 14:31:58 2008
From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:01:58 +0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<"e3 91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<"47e122a70803010633q5 99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
	<7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>

Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places of learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism at work. !
Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net

> On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's 
> that we
> > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few
> > hundred
> > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets 
> for a
> > change
> > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
> > institution
> > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
> 
> 
> To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the 
> reason why
> this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies 
> that there is
> a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many 
> secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior 
> and ignorable.
> 
> Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
> intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It 
> cannot be
> merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief 
> or a
> historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the 
> argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid.
> 
> Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put
> forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical, 
> rather than
> epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History 
> cannot be
> ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
> ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be 
> categorised as
> archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> list 
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 15:08:42 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:08:42 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
	<7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com>

Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has decided to
launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left lazy and
violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students studies
which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity seekers
wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-)

Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges
  **
*Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30
* **
*New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi
University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on Lord Ram
in its history text books, activists said.'

Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint
secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent
protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to take
action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental.

He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S Z H
Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, whose
name is printed on the book as the compiler.

"We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious
sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North
Campus today.

>From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two colleges
each day to seek support from principals and students for a college-wise
demonstration.

Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said that
though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were only
five people in the building during the violence.

"When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the History
Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed.

Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if Upinder
Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department, "what
took her so long to deny charges".

"The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She could
have corrected the mistake any time," she said.


On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
>
> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in
> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does
> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places of
> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu
> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism at
> work. !
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>
> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's
> > that we
> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few
> > > hundred
> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets
> > for a
> > > change
> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
> > > institution
> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
> >
> >
> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the
> > reason why
> > this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies
> > that there is
> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many
> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior
> > and ignorable.
> >
> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It
> > cannot be
> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief
> > or a
> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the
> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid.
> >
> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put
> > forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical,
> > rather than
> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History
> > cannot be
> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be
> > categorised as
> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> > list
> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>

From vivek at sarai.net  Mon Mar  3 16:58:54 2008
From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:58:54 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Almost Island Dialogues 2: March 6-9, New Delhi
Message-ID: <79705fb50803030328k5257200en12fa7661ef192ec7@mail.gmail.com>

Incidentally, much of Claudio Magris' work, including Danube, his best-known
book, amounts to subtle, lyrical, beautiful and ultimately thorough assault
on naive and regressive nationalisms:

"Identity is a quest that is always open, while the obsessive defence of
one's origins can at times be as much a form of regressive slavery as, in
other circumstances, is willing submission to displacement..."

"As Bloch has written, the non-contemporaneousness which divides the
feelings and habits of individuals and of social classes is one of the keys
to history and politics.  It seems to us impossible that what for us is
still an arduous present is for our children already an irrevocable, unknown
past.  Everyone, looked at in this way, is both victim and culprit in the
matter of lack of understanding.  Anyone ten or fifteen years younger than I
am cannot understand that the Istrian exodus after the Second World War is
for me part of the present, just as I cannot really and truly understand
that for him the dates 1968, 1977 and 1981 are milestones marking off
different epochs; periods that for me are superimposed in spite of their
considerable differences, like the swaying grasses on a plain..."
[Claudio Magris - Danube]


ALMOST ISLAND: DIALOGUES 2

MARCH 6TH TO 9TH 2008: INDIA INTERNATIONAL CENTRE, DELHI


Almost Island is a new online literary magazine based in India, but
international in scope.  We have been trying to slowly unfold and discover a
specific kind of intervention in the Indian context:   we conceive of and
believe in poetry and prose on an equal footing, are interested in and open
to (but certainly not simplistically beholden to) the idea of global
literary avant-gardes and, more generally, literature of a philosophical
nature.  We are not afraid of difficulty, complexity, or seriousness, and
we're certainly not afraid of the effects and legacy of more than a century
of literary modernism!

Part of this agenda is also to foster a higher and more intense level of
literary engagement at the local level by bringing major voices from around
the world in contact with Indian writers.  The idea here is not so much to
be absorbed into the making of literary celebrity, or to make a festival of
India's supposed arrival on the world stage, but to listen closely and to
find ways to think through literature as practicing writers and not as
academics, without, on the other hand, "dumbing down".

 This year the conference will extend from the evening of 6th March 2008 to
the evening of 9th March 2008, at the India International Centre (IIC),
Delhi.  There will be readings each evening, including a rudraveena concert
by Bahauddin Dagar on the night of 6th March.  During the day, there will be
extended discussions and talks.

 The evening readings, from Thursday 6th to Sunday 9th March are open to
all.  The day sessions are also open to all interested participants,
but **please
note that we can only provide lunch for a limited number of participants who
have pre-registered**.

 If you have any questions or clarifications, please contact Kavita Bhanot
at 9871716994 / bhanot.kavita at gmail.com.

 Please find a detailed programme below: 1) bios of panelists / readers; 2)
schedule of evening readings; and 3) details of the day sessions.



*1.  PANELISTS AND READERS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2*

 Bei Dao* is considered the most notable of the "misty poets", a group pf
Chinese poets who opposed the restrictions of the Cultural Revolution; his
oblique verses were memorized by students and chanted at Tiananmen Square,
and as a result he went into in exile from China from 1989 to 2006, when he
was allowed to return to Hong Kong, where he is currently based.  Despite
his fame and the political circumstances of his life, he has continued to
write a poetry that is both formally experimental and insistently difficult,
responding to politics in hidden ways, influenced by the work of Paul
Celan.  He is also the editor in chief of the influential Chinese literary
journal, Jintian.  He has won numerous awards and has been nominated several
times for the Nobel Prize in Literature.

 *Nabaneeta Dev Sen* is one of Bengal's leading writers. She is the author
of over fifteen novels, three books of poetry, children's books, plays and
translations. Her two recent novels are *Dwiragaman* and *Ramdhan Mittir
Lane*. Her most recent collection of poetry is *Shreshtha Kabita*. In 2000
she was awarded the Padma Shri for her contribution to Literature. She has
been for many years, a Professor of Comparative Literature at Jadavpur
University in Kolkata.

 *Claudio Magris* is the author of the novels *A Different Sea* and
*Inferences from a Sabre*, along with scholarly works on Austrian and
Central European literature.   In the English speaking world, he is known
principally as the author of two books, *Danube* (a journey from the source
to the mouth of the river) and *Microcosms*, densely allusive literary
journeys that seem to take the genre of "travelogue" into a class of their
own. Magris teaches German literature at the University in Trieste and has
been for many years a columnist for the Italian daily Corriere Della Sera.  He
has been awarded several prizes, among them the Strega Prize and the Erasmus
Prize, and has also been nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature.

 *Allan Sealy* is the author of several acclaimed novels including *The
Trotter Nama*, *The Everest Hotel*, *The Brainfever Bird* and *Red*. He was
awarded the Commonwealth Prize for *The Trotter Nama* and is a recipient of
the Sahitya Akademi Award.

 *George Szirtes* is one of England's leading poets as well as the
translator of several works from the Hungarian, including novels by Sandor
Marai and Lazlo Krasznakorkai. He has over fifteen collections of poetry,
the most recent being *An English Apocalypse* and *Reel*, which won the T.S.
Eliot prize, Britain's highest honour for a single book of poetry, in 2005.
He currently teaches Creative Writing at the University of East Anglia.

 *Udayan Vajpeyi* is a poet, short story writer and essayist. Among his
books are *Sudeshna*, a book of short stories, two collections of
poetry,  *Kuch
Vakya* and *Paagal Ganitajna ki Kavitayen*, and *Abhed Akash*, a book of
conversations with Mani Kaul. He has also translated the work of Paz, Borges
and Brodsky into Hindi. Mr. Vajpeyi has also written texts for films
directed by Sudhansu Misra and Kumar Shahani. He is a recipient of the
Krishan Baldev Vaid award and is a medical doctor by training.

 Vivek Narayanan's first book of poems, *Universal Beach*, appeared in 2006.
He is an associate editor at the Boston-based international poetry annual,
*Fulcrum*, and is consulting editor of *Almost Island*.  He is based in
Delhi, and works at Sarai-CSDS.

 *Sharmistha Mohanty* is the author of two novels, *Book One* and *New
Life*. Her translation of Rabindranath Tagore's fiction, *Broken Nest and
Other Stories* is due out later this year from Westland Books. She is the
editor of *Almost Island*.



2. SCHEDULE OF EVENING READINGS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2



March 6th-9th, 6:30 p.m.

Venue: *India International Centre Annexe Lawns*


*March 6th – 6.30 pm*


Udayan Vajpeyi
Bei Dao

And closing with a dhrupad performance by Bahauddin Dagar on the
rudra-veena.


*March 7th – 6.30 pm*

 Allan Sealy
Nabaneeta Dev Sen

*March 8th – 6.30 p.m.*

 Vivek Narayanan
George Szirtes

*March 9th – 6.30 p.m.*

 Sharmistha Mohanty
Claudio Magris



*3. PROGRAMME FOR DISCUSSIONS DURING THE DAY*

 The discussions at these dialogues emerge from our own concerns at Almost
Island. We are committed to writing that is continually seeking new paths.
More specifically, these discussions emerge from the writers who come
together for these dialogues---their work, their thoughts. We welcome an
audience that is keen to listen and to interact, question, disagree.

*MARCH 7, 2008*

VENUE: Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre



SESSION 1: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m.
Panelists: Bei Dao, George Szirtes, Nabaneeta Dev Sen, Udayan Vajpeyi, Vivek
Narayanan

Bei Dao says, "Many poets separate their experience from the language they
use in poetry, but in the case of some, like Paul Celan, there is a fusion,
a convergence of experience and experimental language." Can this separation,
and this fusion, be explored?

 George Szirtes says, "Speaking personally, I suspect the poet's key
experience is of the simultaneous treacherousness, fragility and beauty of
language, of the narrow divide between signification and meaninglessness or
distortion of meaning. This is related to the question of community. How far
is the language of the community to be trusted? What if the community
doesn't trust you? What kind of language are you left with outside the
community?"

 Can we look at these questions through the tools of the craft---syntax,
diction, metaphor?

 And, says Nabaneeta Dev Sen, "What about the silences, what the poet does
not wish to say?



SESSION 2: 2.30 – 5.00 p.m.

 A conversation with Bei Dao
with Sharmistha Mohanty and Vivek Narayanan)



*MARCH 8, 2008*:
VENUE:  Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre

SESSION 3: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m.

 A talk by Claudio Magris on the search for form in his work, in
conversation with Sharmistha Mohanty.


SESSION 4: 2.30 – 5 p.m.

Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre
Panelists: Sharmistha Mohanty, Claudio Magris, Allan Sealy, Nabaneeta Dev
Sen

"What then is the place of fact in the writer's imagination? By fact I mean
factual knowledge—whether of history, or geology, or natural
processes--information now so widely available to us about the world. I do
not mean historical novels here, or novels based on obvious realities like a
war, or a natural disaster, I do not mean works of representation. I mean
works of prose where the writer uses different kinds of facts, related or
unrelated, and unifies them in her own vision, creating a new experience, a
new insight.

 "The writer of literature does not use fact as sociological observation,
and stand back. Her self is committed and she builds from the emotions and
ambiguities and mysteries that the fact itself generates. The late W. G.
Sebald was a great practitioner of this mode of writing.

 "How then does fact work as an element that builds emotion and insight, how
does it push the imagination further?"

--Sharmistha Mohanty



*MARCH 9, 2008*
VENUE: FOUNTAIN LAWNS, IIC


 SESSION 5: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m.
Panelists: Allan Sealy, Udayan Vajpeyi, George Szirtes, Vivek Narayanan

"I'm interested in the idea of looking vs. reading, that is, gathering one's
material from the world as opposed to gathering it from books. This is only
partly the contemporary / historical divide; it's also a fact / fiction
fight, with the imagination and truth as referees."
—Allan Sealy

  "As I understand it, Allan's statement points to a long and varied
tradition in literature that (even as it draws on its own past for
sustenance) specifically refuses or qualifies "book learning" and insists
instead on the primacy of direct perception and—perhaps?—the truth of
experience as well.  It's a tradition of "witness" (I think) that could be
drawn through the bhakti poets and William Blake, or from Thoreau through to
Gandhi, or indeed, from Darwin.  (I set aside the debate over empiricism /
vision for the moment.)  Of course on one end of the scale, this is the
naïve belief of many a young writer who might take it as an excuse not to
read; but for an experienced writer (who is by definition well read) it
represents a very different challenge.  Allan's emphasis on "looking"
underlines the fact that it is an active and focused engagement rather than
something to be taken for granted.  This, in a way, could be understood as
literature's special insistence even in our age, its gift to the
disciplines.  In a sense, and in a sense only, this is the opposite of the
"fact" drawn from "sources", and it is found not just in fiction but in
lyric as well.   It relates equally to the relationship between experience
and language that will come up in our first panel.

 "However, it can be harder, today, to make a case for "gathering material
from the world" (or from the self in the world) as a separate, oppositional
activity.  Even if we look beyond postmodernist theories that profoundly
question the very possibility of unmediated perception and / or experience,
we are still stuck with the incredible glut of books and data that we cannot
turn our eyes away from, the very fading away of the material world as
information itself becomes a kind of material. In a current sequence of
poems, Mr. Subramanian, I find myself exploring this mediated reality and
somehow stubbornly, despite everything, find myself looking for and
returning to the truth of experience and of direct perception.  What kind of
sense does the "truth of experience" (and of witness) make today?"

--Vivek Narayanan



SESSION 6: 2.30 – 5.00 P.M.

An open session in which the audience and the panelists can return to
thoughts that have emerged over the course of the conference.

From taraprakash at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 19:50:07 2008
From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:20:07 -0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com><7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com><e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
	<6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash>

Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. It's 
all about elections.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History


> Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has decided 
> to
> launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left lazy 
> and
> violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students studies
> which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity seekers
> wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-)
>
> Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges
>  **
> *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30
> * **
> *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi
> University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on Lord 
> Ram
> in its history text books, activists said.'
>
> Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint
> secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent
> protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to take
> action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental.
>
> He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S Z H
> Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, whose
> name is printed on the book as the compiler.
>
> "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious
> sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North
> Campus today.
>
> From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two colleges
> each day to seek support from principals and students for a college-wise
> demonstration.
>
> Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said 
> that
> though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were only
> five people in the building during the violence.
>
> "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the History
> Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed.
>
> Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if Upinder
> Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department, 
> "what
> took her so long to deny charges".
>
> "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She 
> could
> have corrected the mistake any time," she said.
>
>
> On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in
>> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does
>> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places 
>> of
>> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu
>> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism 
>> at
>> work. !
>> Regards.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>>
>> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's
>> > that we
>> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few
>> > > hundred
>> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets
>> > for a
>> > > change
>> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
>> > > institution
>> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
>> >
>> >
>> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the
>> > reason why
>> > this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies
>> > that there is
>> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many
>> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior
>> > and ignorable.
>> >
>> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
>> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It
>> > cannot be
>> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief
>> > or a
>> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the
>> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid.
>> >
>> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put
>> > forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical,
>> > rather than
>> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History
>> > cannot be
>> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
>> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be
>> > categorised as
>> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>> > list
>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> 


From elkamath at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 20:07:43 2008
From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 06:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Reader-list] photos of the mini skirt march Joburg 29 Feb
Message-ID: <429370.94298.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

In the run up to International Women's Day here are some pics of the mini skirt march in Joburg, Feb 29, 2008.
Photos at:
http://www.flickr.com/gp/14762218 at N05/Zir3NY


Cross posted from Debate




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From kirdarsingh at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 20:29:13 2008
From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:29:13 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
In-Reply-To: <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>
Message-ID: <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>

I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
this list is hanging by a thin thread.

MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
the road and narrate it to the people.

(By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)

Kirdar



On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
> Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
> Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
>
>
> >    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht (
> >    Crematorium in Delhi)
> >
> >    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram
> >
> >    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
> >
> >    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to
> >         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed,
> >          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
> >
> >    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
> >             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
> >
> >    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to
> > Raju)
> >
> >    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead (
> >             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram
> > Ram
> >            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
> >
> >    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
> >             how are we Ravana then.
> >
> >    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
> >             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
> >
> >    Ajay: He too is Gandu
> >
> >    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
> >
> >    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
> >            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.
> >
> >    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't
> >            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
> > over there.
> >
> >    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
> >            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
> >
> >    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
> >              sleep with was kidnapped once.
> >
> >    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
> >           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time
> > to ask
> >          all these questions.
> >
> >    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
> >            fucks the kidnapped girl.
> >
> >    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
> >            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband
> > and God
> >          Rama.
> >
> >    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
> >            think who would have come to rescue her.
> >
> >    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
> >
> >    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
> >             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
> > possession of evil
> >             Ravana.
> >
> >    Ajay: And he really banished her?
> >
> >    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
> >
> >    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
> >
> >    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
> >
> >    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't
> >            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
> > This world is
> >            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
> >
> >    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...
> >
> >    (2)
> >
> >    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
> >    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
> >    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
> >    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
> >    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
> >
> >    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and
> >    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just
> >    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
> >    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area.
> >
> >    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
> >
> >    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
> >    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called
> >    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
> >    is a meaningful time pass.
> >
> >    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I
> >    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then
> >    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
> >    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
> >    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone
> >    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
> >    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
> >    wisest of all.
> >
> >    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
> >    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a
> >    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
> >    but sooner they will cease to be.
> >
> >    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
> >    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
> >    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
> >    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps,
> >    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is
> >    that true?
> >
> >     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so
> >    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
> >    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
> >    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
> >    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the
> >    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
> >
> >    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes
> >    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
> >    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
> >    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this
> >    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
> >    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need
> >    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
> >    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
> >    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe that
> >    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
> >    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,
> >    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors.
> >    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their
> >    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
> >    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word
> >    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85
> >
> >    ( to be continued..
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 21:20:34 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:20:34 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
	<7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
	<6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
Message-ID: <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com>

Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal has yet
not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt. which
controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step taken.
But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no
Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica Lall
and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this case
but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've seen
the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after the
incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP which
have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme
court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of this
BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere playing
of blame game.

We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in today's
senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have lost
their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They blindly go
on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on
glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to all.
And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system.




On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. It's
> all about elections.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>
>
> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has
> decided
> > to
> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left lazy
> > and
> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students studies
> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity
> seekers
> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-)
> >
> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges
> >  **
> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30
> > * **
> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi
> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on Lord
> > Ram
> > in its history text books, activists said.'
> >
> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint
> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent
> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to take
> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental.
> >
> > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S Z
> H
> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, whose
> > name is printed on the book as the compiler.
> >
> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious
> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North
> > Campus today.
> >
> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two
> colleges
> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a college-wise
> > demonstration.
> >
> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said
> > that
> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were
> only
> > five people in the building during the violence.
> >
> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the History
> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed.
> >
> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if
> Upinder
> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department,
> > "what
> > took her so long to deny charges".
> >
> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She
> > could
> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said.
> >
> >
> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas
> in
> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does
> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places
> >> of
> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu
> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism
> >> at
> >> work. !
> >> Regards.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> >>
> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's
> >> > that we
> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a
> few
> >> > > hundred
> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets
> >> > for a
> >> > > change
> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
> >> > > institution
> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the
> >> > reason why
> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies
> >> > that there is
> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many
> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior
> >> > and ignorable.
> >> >
> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It
> >> > cannot be
> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief
> >> > or a
> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the
> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid.
> >> >
> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put
> >> > forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical,
> >> > rather than
> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History
> >> > cannot be
> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be
> >> > categorised as
> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
> >> > _________________________________________
> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> >> > list
> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>

From mrsg at vsnl.com  Mon Mar  3 23:04:27 2008
From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:04:27 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<"00 0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY>
	<73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003701c87d55$01a8c8f0$0201a8c0@MRAY>

Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this. As a 
typical 'secular', Kirdar singh finds fault first with MRSG and then finds 
Salim equally guilty who started his 'story' with ugly conversation. MRSG 
has not used any foul word and has only stated some historical facts. Kirdar 
singh as a secular (read pro-Islamists) thought MRSG was just waiting for an 
excuse. For information, any civilised person on earth considers an adopted 
son as his/her own son and adopted son's wife as daughter-in-law, not some 
one to be raped.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kirdar singh" <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
To: "MRSG" <mrsg at vsnl.com>
Cc: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>; "sarai list" 
<reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju


>I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
> expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
> this list is hanging by a thin thread.
>
> MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
> deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
> Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
> continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
> the road and narrate it to the people.
>
> (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)
>
> Kirdar
>
>
>
> On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
>> Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
>> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
>> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
>> Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
>>
>>
>> >    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht 
>> > (
>> >    Crematorium in Delhi)
>> >
>> >    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , 
>> > Ram
>> >
>> >    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
>> >
>> >    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went 
>> > to
>> >         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass 
>> > screwed,
>> >          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
>> >
>> >    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
>> >             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
>> >
>> >    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam 
>> > to
>> > Raju)
>> >
>> >    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead 
>> > (
>> >             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered 
>> > Ram
>> > Ram
>> >            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
>> >
>> >    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
>> >             how are we Ravana then.
>> >
>> >    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
>> >             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
>> >
>> >    Ajay: He too is Gandu
>> >
>> >    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
>> >
>> >    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
>> >            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.
>> >
>> >    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, 
>> > don't
>> >            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
>> > over there.
>> >
>> >    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
>> >            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
>> >
>> >    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
>> >              sleep with was kidnapped once.
>> >
>> >    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
>> >           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get 
>> > time
>> > to ask
>> >          all these questions.
>> >
>> >    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
>> >            fucks the kidnapped girl.
>> >
>> >    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
>> >            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband
>> > and God
>> >          Rama.
>> >
>> >    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
>> >            think who would have come to rescue her.
>> >
>> >    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
>> >
>> >    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
>> >             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
>> > possession of evil
>> >             Ravana.
>> >
>> >    Ajay: And he really banished her?
>> >
>> >    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
>> >
>> >    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
>> >
>> >    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
>> >
>> >    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I 
>> > don't
>> >            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
>> > This world is
>> >            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
>> >
>> >    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...
>> >
>> >    (2)
>> >
>> >    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
>> >    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
>> >    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
>> >    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
>> >    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
>> >
>> >    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread 
>> > and
>> >    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it 
>> > just
>> >    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
>> >    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread 
>> > area.
>> >
>> >    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
>> >
>> >    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
>> >    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals 
>> > called
>> >    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
>> >    is a meaningful time pass.
>> >
>> >    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece 
>> > I
>> >    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, 
>> > then
>> >    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
>> >    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
>> >    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let 
>> > alone
>> >    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
>> >    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
>> >    wisest of all.
>> >
>> >    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
>> >    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on 
>> > a
>> >    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
>> >    but sooner they will cease to be.
>> >
>> >    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
>> >    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
>> >    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
>> >    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which 
>> > perhaps,
>> >    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. 
>> > Is
>> >    that true?
>> >
>> >     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, 
>> > so
>> >    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
>> >    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
>> >    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
>> >    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around 
>> > the
>> >    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
>> >
>> >    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who 
>> > makes
>> >    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
>> >    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
>> >    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, 
>> > this
>> >    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
>> >    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I 
>> > need
>> >    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
>> >    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
>> >    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe 
>> > that
>> >    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
>> >    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our 
>> > misfortunes,
>> >    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our 
>> > predecessors.
>> >    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing 
>> > their
>> >    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
>> >    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a 
>> > word
>> >    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85
>> >
>> >    ( to be continued..
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> 


From indersalim at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 23:43:29 2008
From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 23:43:29 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>
	<73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,
Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant
corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid
communalism, sheer poverty etc etc..,

 How to define a proud Indian?

Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set
up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies
and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the
brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe
madness even.

Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that
the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is
announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a
great country called Bharat, but how to understand  this country which
is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions
when a decent looking  judge sits across a poor petty under trail
thief. And when the frustrated thief  manages to throw shit on Judge's
face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The
petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and
decent citizens of shining India.

And this John Nobody called inder salim is  pointing out all this for
his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even,
seriously )

Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not  Delhi's
Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples ,
gurudwaras and  mosques  are erected illegally on government lands.
The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India.
 Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal
tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari
corner shop.

And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in
every sacred calendar.  Of course, that is the people's choice, but do
they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to
see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But
if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very
individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their
way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are
free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not
work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai.

Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the
number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are  made of
such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for
their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes
in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not
this absurd?

I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of
Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred
scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world
as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ?

It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to
Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal,
VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo
-liberalism of Bengali Left.  The world would have been a peaceful
place to live in if  these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were
not born.

 The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without
dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other.  I believe,
there is no full stop in a discourse…

What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar?

With love and regards
is



On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
>  expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
>  this list is hanging by a thin thread.
>
>  MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
>  deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
>  Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
>  continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
>  the road and narrate it to the people.
>
>  (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)
>
>  Kirdar
>
>
>
>
>
>  On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
>  > Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
>  > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
>  > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>  >
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>  > To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>  > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
>  > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
>  >
>  >
>  > >    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht (
>  > >    Crematorium in Delhi)
>  > >
>  > >    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram
>  > >
>  > >    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to
>  > >         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed,
>  > >          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
>  > >             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to
>  > > Raju)
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead (
>  > >             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram
>  > > Ram
>  > >            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
>  > >             how are we Ravana then.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
>  > >             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: He too is Gandu
>  > >
>  > >    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
>  > >            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't
>  > >            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
>  > > over there.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
>  > >            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
>  > >              sleep with was kidnapped once.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
>  > >           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time
>  > > to ask
>  > >          all these questions.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
>  > >            fucks the kidnapped girl.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
>  > >            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband
>  > > and God
>  > >          Rama.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
>  > >            think who would have come to rescue her.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
>  > >             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
>  > > possession of evil
>  > >             Ravana.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: And he really banished her?
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
>  > >
>  > >    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't
>  > >            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
>  > > This world is
>  > >            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
>  > >
>  > >    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...
>  > >
>  > >    (2)
>  > >
>  > >    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
>  > >    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
>  > >    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
>  > >    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
>  > >    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
>  > >
>  > >    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and
>  > >    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just
>  > >    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
>  > >    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area.
>  > >
>  > >    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
>  > >
>  > >    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
>  > >    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called
>  > >    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
>  > >    is a meaningful time pass.
>  > >
>  > >    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I
>  > >    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then
>  > >    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
>  > >    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
>  > >    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone
>  > >    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
>  > >    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
>  > >    wisest of all.
>  > >
>  > >    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
>  > >    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a
>  > >    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
>  > >    but sooner they will cease to be.
>  > >
>  > >    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
>  > >    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
>  > >    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
>  > >    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps,
>  > >    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is
>  > >    that true?
>  > >
>  > >     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so
>  > >    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
>  > >    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
>  > >    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
>  > >    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the
>  > >    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
>  > >
>  > >    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes
>  > >    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
>  > >    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
>  > >    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this
>  > >    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
>  > >    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need
>  > >    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
>  > >    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
>  > >    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe that
>  > >    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
>  > >    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,
>  > >    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors.
>  > >    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their
>  > >    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
>  > >    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word
>  > >    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85
>  > >
>  > >    ( to be continued..
>  > > _________________________________________
>  > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>  > > Critiques & Collaborations
>  > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>  > > subscribe in the subject header.
>  > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>  > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>  >
>  > _________________________________________
>  > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>  > Critiques & Collaborations
>  > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
>  > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>  > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>



-- 

http://indersalim.livejournal.com

From taraprakash at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 00:08:28 2008
From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:38:28 -0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
References: DEFANGED[1]:<1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com><7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com><e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net><6
	" "
	353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com><00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
	<6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash>

No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might 
consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only witness who 
came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does the 
court come in to this?

It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of  Ram, that his name has 
been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers, 
liars, profiteers, opportunists.

It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more about 
the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your 
revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand still 
on the non-issues.
---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History


> Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal has 
> yet
> not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt. 
> which
> controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step 
> taken.
> But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no
> Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica 
> Lall
> and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this 
> case
> but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've 
> seen
> the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after the
> incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP 
> which
> have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme
> court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of this
> BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere 
> playing
> of blame game.
>
> We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in 
> today's
> senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have lost
> their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They blindly 
> go
> on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on
> glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to 
> all.
> And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. It's
>> all about elections.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>>
>>
>> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has
>> decided
>> > to
>> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left 
>> > lazy
>> > and
>> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students 
>> > studies
>> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity
>> seekers
>> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-)
>> >
>> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges
>> >  **
>> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30
>> > * **
>> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi
>> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on 
>> > Lord
>> > Ram
>> > in its history text books, activists said.'
>> >
>> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint
>> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent
>> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to 
>> > take
>> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental.
>> >
>> > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S 
>> > Z
>> H
>> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, 
>> > whose
>> > name is printed on the book as the compiler.
>> >
>> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious
>> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North
>> > Campus today.
>> >
>> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two
>> colleges
>> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a 
>> > college-wise
>> > demonstration.
>> >
>> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said
>> > that
>> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were
>> only
>> > five people in the building during the violence.
>> >
>> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the 
>> > History
>> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed.
>> >
>> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if
>> Upinder
>> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department,
>> > "what
>> > took her so long to deny charges".
>> >
>> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She
>> > could
>> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas
>> in
>> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does
>> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those 
>> >> places
>> >> of
>> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride 
>> >> hindu
>> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is 
>> >> secularism
>> >> at
>> >> work. !
>> >> Regards.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
>> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >>
>> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's
>> >> > that we
>> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a
>> few
>> >> > > hundred
>> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets
>> >> > for a
>> >> > > change
>> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
>> >> > > institution
>> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the
>> >> > reason why
>> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies
>> >> > that there is
>> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many
>> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior
>> >> > and ignorable.
>> >> >
>> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
>> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It
>> >> > cannot be
>> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief
>> >> > or a
>> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the
>> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid.
>> >> >
>> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and 
>> >> > put
>> >> > forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical,
>> >> > rather than
>> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History
>> >> > cannot be
>> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
>> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be
>> >> > categorised as
>> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
>> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>> >> > list
>> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> >>
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> 


From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 02:09:25 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:09:25 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
	<7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
	<6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
	<6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com>
	<009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
Message-ID: <6353c690803031239v7c9d6d8h65edaf2117170ff1@mail.gmail.com>

The court surely does come in at each and every point. In Priyadarshini
Mattoo Case it was the Court who allwed th prisoner to roam free on benefit
of doubt for nearly 7 years. In this particular case as well Supreme Court
is the one to initiate any action. The govt. may do anything  but the court
has to act by law at the end of the day. The law enforcement agencies need
to be taken to task for their biased attitude; so what be it on Govt.
pressure. The Law enforcement agencies by moral right n duty have to be
neutral.

I'm no ABVP supporter that I would save those people or support them; but
what we know through media is only half truth which is being portrayed. I
don't have anything further to say on this.

Now, who is using Ram in a negative connotation is quite evident by the
media reports in last few days. What remains the truth is again somewhat
invisible ? Is whatever that media shows truth ? A lot of understanding and
indepth investigation may answer these questions.

Its surely sad that politics is being playes on the name of RAM. But, one
shouldn't keep mum and standstill and bear all abuses on his/her religion.
Wasn't the cartoon of Prophet Mohommad by a Danish reporter a form of
freedom of expression ? Where was this left lobby at that time ? If I'm not
wrong protesting at Jantar Mantar against the freedom of expression. Lets
not change our political views with every other religion.

Thanks
Aditya Raj


On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might
> consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only witness
> who
> came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does the
> court come in to this?
>
> It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of  Ram, that his name has
> been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers,
> liars, profiteers, opportunists.
>
> It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more about
> the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your
> revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand still
> on the non-issues.
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>
>
> > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal has
> > yet
> > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt.
> > which
> > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step
> > taken.
> > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no
> > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica
> > Lall
> > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this
> > case
> > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've
> > seen
> > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after
> the
> > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP
> > which
> > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme
> > court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of
> this
> > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere
> > playing
> > of blame game.
> >
> > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in
> > today's
> > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have lost
> > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They blindly
> > go
> > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on
> > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to
> > all.
> > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students.
> It's
> >> all about elections.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> >>
> >>
> >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has
> >> decided
> >> > to
> >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left
> >> > lazy
> >> > and
> >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students
> >> > studies
> >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity
> >> seekers
> >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-)
> >> >
> >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges
> >> >  **
> >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30
> >> > * **
> >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across
> Delhi
> >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on
> >> > Lord
> >> > Ram
> >> > in its history text books, activists said.'
> >> >
> >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint
> >> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for
> violent
> >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to
> >> > take
> >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental.
> >> >
> >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History)
> S
> >> > Z
> >> H
> >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh,
> >> > whose
> >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler.
> >> >
> >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the
> religious
> >> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at
> North
> >> > Campus today.
> >> >
> >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two
> >> colleges
> >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a
> >> > college-wise
> >> > demonstration.
> >> >
> >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and
> said
> >> > that
> >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were
> >> only
> >> > five people in the building during the violence.
> >> >
> >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the
> >> > History
> >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed.
> >> >
> >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if
> >> Upinder
> >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department,
> >> > "what
> >> > took her so long to deny charges".
> >> >
> >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years.
> She
> >> > could
> >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many
> Ramayanas
> >> in
> >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is
> does
> >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those
> >> >> places
> >> >> of
> >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride
> >> >> hindu
> >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is
> >> >> secularism
> >> >> at
> >> >> work. !
> >> >> Regards.
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
> >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> >> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> >> >>
> >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's
> >> >> > that we
> >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a
> >> few
> >> >> > > hundred
> >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets
> >> >> > for a
> >> >> > > change
> >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
> >> >> > > institution
> >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the
> >> >> > reason why
> >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies
> >> >> > that there is
> >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many
> >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior
> >> >> > and ignorable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
> >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It
> >> >> > cannot be
> >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief
> >> >> > or a
> >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the
> >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and
> apartheid.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and
> >> >> > put
> >> >> > forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical,
> >> >> > rather than
> >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History
> >> >> > cannot be
> >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
> >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be
> >> >> > categorised as
> >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
> >> >> > _________________________________________
> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> >> >> > list
> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >> >>
> >> > _________________________________________
> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>
> >>
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>

From taraprakash at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 03:48:08 2008
From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:18:08 -0500
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
References: DEFANGED[4647]:<1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com><7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com><e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net><6
	" "
	353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com><00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash><6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com><009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
	<6353c690803031239v7c9d6d8h65edaf2117170ff1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014e01c87d7c$76e07f60$6400a8c0@taraprakash>

I am really not sure if your assumption that everything that is not BJP or 
ABVP is left is correct. Where does left come in this entire debate? The 
ABVP goons are not after any leftist's blood. They seem to be after the 
daughter of the P.M.
Some guys on this list seem to be blaming everything on left for every ill 
of the society. Very soon we might hear that it was the left lobby that 
demolished the Mosque in Ayodhya. May be the goons who attacked history 
department and those who commited the murder in Bhopal were left oriented 
ABVP goons.
Are the judges sitting in the courts left oriented?
So the left lobby should be given free land on Jantar mantar where they can 
protest for every non-issue. How about enlightening the left lobby, whatever 
it means, what should they have done about the cartoons? Protested against 
the protests? And how about the issue of repression of the politicians in 
Bangladesh? About the issues of Sudan, Kenya and Russia?
I am really sympathetic to you for the court's injustice in all the cases. 
The court tells your chief minister to visit the murderer? Was it on the 
request of the court that the movies are banned in India. Does court tell 
you to attack the professors? Does court sanctions violence in university 
campuses?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History


> The court surely does come in at each and every point. In Priyadarshini
> Mattoo Case it was the Court who allwed th prisoner to roam free on 
> benefit
> of doubt for nearly 7 years. In this particular case as well Supreme Court
> is the one to initiate any action. The govt. may do anything  but the 
> court
> has to act by law at the end of the day. The law enforcement agencies need
> to be taken to task for their biased attitude; so what be it on Govt.
> pressure. The Law enforcement agencies by moral right n duty have to be
> neutral.
>
> I'm no ABVP supporter that I would save those people or support them; but
> what we know through media is only half truth which is being portrayed. I
> don't have anything further to say on this.
>
> Now, who is using Ram in a negative connotation is quite evident by the
> media reports in last few days. What remains the truth is again somewhat
> invisible ? Is whatever that media shows truth ? A lot of understanding 
> and
> indepth investigation may answer these questions.
>
> Its surely sad that politics is being playes on the name of RAM. But, one
> shouldn't keep mum and standstill and bear all abuses on his/her religion.
> Wasn't the cartoon of Prophet Mohommad by a Danish reporter a form of
> freedom of expression ? Where was this left lobby at that time ? If I'm 
> not
> wrong protesting at Jantar Mantar against the freedom of expression. Lets
> not change our political views with every other religion.
>
> Thanks
> Aditya Raj
>
>
> On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might
>> consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only witness
>> who
>> came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does the
>> court come in to this?
>>
>> It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of  Ram, that his name has
>> been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers,
>> liars, profiteers, opportunists.
>>
>> It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more about
>> the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your
>> revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand 
>> still
>> on the non-issues.
>> ---- Original Message -----
>> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>>
>>
>> > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal 
>> > has
>> > yet
>> > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt.
>> > which
>> > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step
>> > taken.
>> > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no
>> > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica
>> > Lall
>> > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this
>> > case
>> > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've
>> > seen
>> > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after
>> the
>> > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP
>> > which
>> > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme
>> > court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of
>> this
>> > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere
>> > playing
>> > of blame game.
>> >
>> > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in
>> > today's
>> > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have 
>> > lost
>> > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They 
>> > blindly
>> > go
>> > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on
>> > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to
>> > all.
>> > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students.
>> It's
>> >> all about elections.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>> >> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has
>> >> decided
>> >> > to
>> >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left
>> >> > lazy
>> >> > and
>> >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students
>> >> > studies
>> >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity
>> >> seekers
>> >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-)
>> >> >
>> >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU 
>> >> > colleges
>> >> >  **
>> >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30
>> >> > * **
>> >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across
>> Delhi
>> >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on
>> >> > Lord
>> >> > Ram
>> >> > in its history text books, activists said.'
>> >> >
>> >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint
>> >> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for
>> violent
>> >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to
>> >> > take
>> >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental.
>> >> >
>> >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History)
>> S
>> >> > Z
>> >> H
>> >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh,
>> >> > whose
>> >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler.
>> >> >
>> >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the
>> religious
>> >> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at
>> North
>> >> > Campus today.
>> >> >
>> >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two
>> >> colleges
>> >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a
>> >> > college-wise
>> >> > demonstration.
>> >> >
>> >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and
>> said
>> >> > that
>> >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were
>> >> only
>> >> > five people in the building during the violence.
>> >> >
>> >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the
>> >> > History
>> >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed.
>> >> >
>> >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if
>> >> Upinder
>> >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History 
>> >> > Department,
>> >> > "what
>> >> > took her so long to deny charges".
>> >> >
>> >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years.
>> She
>> >> > could
>> >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many
>> Ramayanas
>> >> in
>> >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is
>> does
>> >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those
>> >> >> places
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride
>> >> >> hindu
>> >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is
>> >> >> secularism
>> >> >> at
>> >> >> work. !
>> >> >> Regards.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
>> >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University 
>> >> >> History
>> >> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>> >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's
>> >> >> > that we
>> >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe 
>> >> >> > > a
>> >> few
>> >> >> > > hundred
>> >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets
>> >> >> > for a
>> >> >> > > change
>> >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
>> >> >> > > institution
>> >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc 
>> >> >> > > etc.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the
>> >> >> > reason why
>> >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies
>> >> >> > that there is
>> >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many
>> >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior
>> >> >> > and ignorable.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical 
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It
>> >> >> > cannot be
>> >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority 
>> >> >> > belief
>> >> >> > or a
>> >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the
>> >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and
>> apartheid.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and
>> >> >> > put
>> >> >> > forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical,
>> >> >> > rather than
>> >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History
>> >> >> > cannot be
>> >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
>> >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be
>> >> >> > categorised as
>> >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
>> >> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>> >> >> > list
>> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> >> >>
>> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> >>
>> >>
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> 


From bawazainab79 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 07:37:03 2008
From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:37:03 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Story of the Bangalore Metro Rail
Message-ID: <a86d95890803031807n3a9d59aco32b9be1db122b9d8@mail.gmail.com>

26/02/2008

I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge
K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro
Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. The Bangalore Metro
Rail Corporation has been fighting tooth and nail to ensure that the
alignment of the Metro stays on CMH Road. The traders along CMH Road argue
that their trades will be shut for two years, in addition to the
displacement that will take place owing to the demolition of a number of
shops to build the Metro. "We have made CMH Road what it is today. Who wants
compensation? We want our place!"

"We want our place!"
"We want our place!"
"We want our place!"
"We want our place!"
"We want our place!"
"We want our place!"
"We want our place!"
"We want our place!"

26/02/2008

I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge
K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro
Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. I found myself as
nervous, perhaps even more nervous than the traders whose fates were to be
determined by a legal order. Well, but of course, in the city, our fates are
sealed by forces more than one, that is if the avenues for negotiations
remain open. So eventually, I asked one of the traders, "Are you nervous?"
He smiled and said, "We are confident. God is on our sides." Now, I wonder
how God aligns himself/herself and how we align God and how the BMRCl aligns
God ...

The arguments took place in the court. At one point, the counsel for the
BMRCL openly stated, "The court is not a forum for deciding on the merits
and demerits of economic and administrative policies." The judge was not
perturbed by this statement. Eventually, the judge declares that the court
is not the authority to decide on the alignment of the Metro. Neither can
people question the genesis of the Metro. The plan and infrastructure are
declared supreme!

(Is there anything more to say?) ....

For more details, see
http://www.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/81-cmh-road-no-to-metro



-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://wbfs.wordpress.com

From mohit.thatte at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 08:07:43 2008
From: mohit.thatte at gmail.com (Mohit Thatte)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:37:43 -0800
Subject: [Reader-list] Story of the Bangalore Metro Rail
In-Reply-To: <a86d95890803031807n3a9d59aco32b9be1db122b9d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86d95890803031807n3a9d59aco32b9be1db122b9d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16189fe60803031837r250a12a6q45ff45f8697d6912@mail.gmail.com>

This is a typical example where "greater good" clashes with the interest of
locals.

To be more specific, the city of Bangalore will get an alternate, efficient
means of public transport thereby reducing commute times, improving traffic
conditions, reducing air pollution(?), saving fuel costs and so on. On the
other hand, some individuals will be affected by the construction activity
leading to the loss of business temporarily, for which they will be
compensated by the BMRCL.

Who is to decide what is "fair" in such a scenario?

Clearly, with the building of the metro, there will be multiple groups of
people whose businesses are affected. Who decides whether the compensation
paid to them is fair or not?

On the other hand, it seems evident from the numbers in the linked article
that the compensation structure is quite unfair to a lot of people, where do
they turn for redressal?! If the court says it cannot interfere with matters
of policy, there is no where to go for the traders!


~Mohit


On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Zainab Bawa <bawazainab79 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 26/02/2008
>
> I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge
> K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro
> Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. The Bangalore
> Metro
> Rail Corporation has been fighting tooth and nail to ensure that the
> alignment of the Metro stays on CMH Road. The traders along CMH Road argue
> that their trades will be shut for two years, in addition to the
> displacement that will take place owing to the demolition of a number of
> shops to build the Metro. "We have made CMH Road what it is today. Who
> wants
> compensation? We want our place!"
>
> "We want our place!"
> "We want our place!"
> "We want our place!"
> "We want our place!"
> "We want our place!"
> "We want our place!"
> "We want our place!"
> "We want our place!"
>
> 26/02/2008
>
> I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge
> K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro
> Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. I found myself as
> nervous, perhaps even more nervous than the traders whose fates were to be
> determined by a legal order. Well, but of course, in the city, our fates
> are
> sealed by forces more than one, that is if the avenues for negotiations
> remain open. So eventually, I asked one of the traders, "Are you nervous?"
> He smiled and said, "We are confident. God is on our sides." Now, I wonder
> how God aligns himself/herself and how we align God and how the BMRCl
> aligns
> God ...
>
> The arguments took place in the court. At one point, the counsel for the
> BMRCL openly stated, "The court is not a forum for deciding on the merits
> and demerits of economic and administrative policies." The judge was not
> perturbed by this statement. Eventually, the judge declares that the court
> is not the authority to decide on the alignment of the Metro. Neither can
> people question the genesis of the Metro. The plan and infrastructure are
> declared supreme!
>
> (Is there anything more to say?) ....
>
> For more details, see
> http://www.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/81-cmh-road-no-to-metro
>
>
>
> --
> Zainab Bawa
> Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher
>
> Between Places ...
> http://wbfs.wordpress.com
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>




-- 
-Mohit Thatte
"*Smart one-liner goes here*"

From naresh.rhythm at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 07:49:09 2008
From: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com (Naresh Kumar)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:49:09 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Looking for Ramanujan's article
Message-ID: <002601c87da0$cd398f40$8175a13b@nishkars70e408>

In one of his replies Indersalam posted some portion of the article by Ramanujan and Ravikant also mentioned a URL but I could not get hold of the article. Can anyone post the full article?
NARESH KUMAR,
MOBILE:09999308530,
e-mail: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com,
Residence: 75,
Delhi Government flats,
Sector11,
Rohini,
Delhi110085.

From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 08:55:57 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:55:57 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <014e01c87d7c$76e07f60$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>
	<7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
	<6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
	<6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com>
	<009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
	<6353c690803031239v7c9d6d8h65edaf2117170ff1@mail.gmail.com>
	<014e01c87d7c$76e07f60$6400a8c0@taraprakash>
Message-ID: <6353c690803031925m5f60ffaew6a60ffb802f96a3@mail.gmail.com>

As I said before I have nothing in personal terms to with ABVP. I just want
a picture of any episode to be given in the right perspective (not rightist
or leftist). Hope you understand this last time. But, what astonishes me is
what the hell has ABVP and the rightist done to some odd people out there
that they just can't dijest anything related to Hindu's; they are just not
happy to call themselves Hindu's or be Hindu's ? They do believe in freedom
of expression but no freedom of religion. Freedom of expression surely means
in today's times according to leftist to carve out nude Godess's in
paintings; to write ill about Ram in TEXTBOOKS or propogate negative details
about Ramayana etc etc. Aren't the leftist intellectuals a bit positive
about things ? Why do they have a problem with just everything and almost
all times no solutions ? As one of my senior friends in this forum suggests
in India the leftist should be called "Limousine Leftists". They are filthy
rich, roam around in luxury cars, stay in palaces; eat grand food from the 5
Star's and still talk things as a leftist. I just can't stop laughing; their
failure and current state amuses me.

Sir, Courts - The Judiciary is a very important pillar and has a major role
to play. Why can't a judge take sue motto cognigance when he see's gross
injustice taking place ? Let me remind you this happened with a few cases of
Godhra. But, on the other hand Kashmiri Pandit's have been killed, looted,
raped...they were displaced and still no court, law enforcement agency, your
leftist etc. came to raise their plight or human rights violation. The left
oriented lobby of Arundhati Roy, Kuldeep Nayar, Rajender Sachhar, Gautam
Navlakha, Sonia Jabbar etc. are hell bent on saving a killer Yasin Malik of
JKLF from the Courts; instead they have been praising this fake person as a
Gandhian. What more can I now expect from your leftist mates ?

I surely won't get Nandigram in betweeen here as you have done with Babri
Masjid. Let me tell that just nothin happened in Babri Masjid on that day
which people in this forum keep blabbering about; what had happened in real
was in Kashmir and before that Babri Masjid episode. More than 400 temples
of Kashmir were destroyed, descreated and in some places Masjid's were
suddenly built. They even didn't leave the Shamshaan Ghat's there. The civil
society, media, human rights and you remained silent; as you do till date.

Do I have a Hope left now ? Would you get us Justice ? To indepth understand
this issue do read our campaign blog @
http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/

I would not like to carry out a debate in this form where we only indulge in
blame game; not only you but me as well. The picture is clear in front of
us; let each soul decide what is the truth behind this History Department
episode.

With Regards,
Aditya Raj Kaul





On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am really not sure if your assumption that everything that is not BJP or
> ABVP is left is correct. Where does left come in this entire debate? The
> ABVP goons are not after any leftist's blood. They seem to be after the
> daughter of the P.M.
> Some guys on this list seem to be blaming everything on left for every ill
> of the society. Very soon we might hear that it was the left lobby that
> demolished the Mosque in Ayodhya. May be the goons who attacked history
> department and those who commited the murder in Bhopal were left oriented
> ABVP goons.
> Are the judges sitting in the courts left oriented?
> So the left lobby should be given free land on Jantar mantar where they
> can
> protest for every non-issue. How about enlightening the left lobby,
> whatever
> it means, what should they have done about the cartoons? Protested against
> the protests? And how about the issue of repression of the politicians in
> Bangladesh? About the issues of Sudan, Kenya and Russia?
> I am really sympathetic to you for the court's injustice in all the cases.
> The court tells your chief minister to visit the murderer? Was it on the
> request of the court that the movies are banned in India. Does court tell
> you to attack the professors? Does court sanctions violence in university
> campuses?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
>
>
> > The court surely does come in at each and every point. In Priyadarshini
> > Mattoo Case it was the Court who allwed th prisoner to roam free on
> > benefit
> > of doubt for nearly 7 years. In this particular case as well Supreme
> Court
> > is the one to initiate any action. The govt. may do anything  but the
> > court
> > has to act by law at the end of the day. The law enforcement agencies
> need
> > to be taken to task for their biased attitude; so what be it on Govt.
> > pressure. The Law enforcement agencies by moral right n duty have to be
> > neutral.
> >
> > I'm no ABVP supporter that I would save those people or support them;
> but
> > what we know through media is only half truth which is being portrayed.
> I
> > don't have anything further to say on this.
> >
> > Now, who is using Ram in a negative connotation is quite evident by the
> > media reports in last few days. What remains the truth is again somewhat
> > invisible ? Is whatever that media shows truth ? A lot of understanding
> > and
> > indepth investigation may answer these questions.
> >
> > Its surely sad that politics is being playes on the name of RAM. But,
> one
> > shouldn't keep mum and standstill and bear all abuses on his/her
> religion.
> > Wasn't the cartoon of Prophet Mohommad by a Danish reporter a form of
> > freedom of expression ? Where was this left lobby at that time ? If I'm
> > not
> > wrong protesting at Jantar Mantar against the freedom of expression.
> Lets
> > not change our political views with every other religion.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Aditya Raj
> >
> >
> > On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might
> >> consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only
> witness
> >> who
> >> came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does
> the
> >> court come in to this?
> >>
> >> It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of  Ram, that his name
> has
> >> been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers,
> >> liars, profiteers, opportunists.
> >>
> >> It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more
> about
> >> the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your
> >> revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand
> >> still
> >> on the non-issues.
> >> ---- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> >>
> >>
> >> > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal
> >> > has
> >> > yet
> >> > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt.
> >> > which
> >> > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step
> >> > taken.
> >> > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet
> no
> >> > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of
> Jessica
> >> > Lall
> >> > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in
> this
> >> > case
> >> > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle.
> I've
> >> > seen
> >> > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after
> >> the
> >> > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from
> ABVP
> >> > which
> >> > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of
> supreme
> >> > court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of
> >> this
> >> > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere
> >> > playing
> >> > of blame game.
> >> >
> >> > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in
> >> > today's
> >> > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have
> >> > lost
> >> > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They
> >> > blindly
> >> > go
> >> > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent
> on
> >> > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known
> to
> >> > all.
> >> > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling
> system.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students.
> >> It's
> >> >> all about elections.
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >> >> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has
> >> >> decided
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike
> left
> >> >> > lazy
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students
> >> >> > studies
> >> >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity
> >> >> seekers
> >> >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU
> >> >> > colleges
> >> >> >  **
> >> >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30
> >> >> > * **
> >> >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across
> >> Delhi
> >> >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks
> on
> >> >> > Lord
> >> >> > Ram
> >> >> > in its history text books, activists said.'
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state
> joint
> >> >> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for
> >> violent
> >> >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police
> to
> >> >> > take
> >> >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department
> (History)
> >> S
> >> >> > Z
> >> >> H
> >> >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh,
> >> >> > whose
> >> >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the
> >> religious
> >> >> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at
> >> North
> >> >> > Campus today.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two
> >> >> colleges
> >> >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a
> >> >> > college-wise
> >> >> > demonstration.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and
> >> said
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there
> were
> >> >> only
> >> >> > five people in the building during the violence.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the
> >> >> > History
> >> >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he
> claimed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if
> >> >> Upinder
> >> >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History
> >> >> > Department,
> >> >> > "what
> >> >> > took her so long to deny charges".
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years.
> >> She
> >> >> > could
> >> >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many
> >> Ramayanas
> >> >> in
> >> >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is
> >> does
> >> >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those
> >> >> >> places
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride
> >> >> >> hindu
> >> >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is
> >> >> >> secularism
> >> >> >> at
> >> >> >> work. !
> >> >> >> Regards.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University
> >> >> >> History
> >> >> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two
> Ramayan's
> >> >> >> > that we
> >> >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There
> maybe
> >> >> >> > > a
> >> >> few
> >> >> >> > > hundred
> >> >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But,
> lets
> >> >> >> > for a
> >> >> >> > > change
> >> >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in
> an
> >> >> >> > > institution
> >> >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc
> >> >> >> > > etc.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the
> >> >> >> > reason why
> >> >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies
> >> >> >> > that there is
> >> >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and
> many
> >> >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as
> inferior
> >> >> >> > and ignorable.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is
> made.  It
> >> >> >> > cannot be
> >> >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority
> >> >> >> > belief
> >> >> >> > or a
> >> >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is
> the
> >> >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and
> >> apartheid.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive,
> and
> >> >> >> > put
> >> >> >> > forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical,
> >> >> >> > rather than
> >> >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a
> discipline.  History
> >> >> >> > cannot be
> >> >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
> >> >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be
> >> >> >> > categorised as
> >> >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
> >> >> >> > _________________________________________
> >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
> >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> >> >> >> > list
> >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > _________________________________________
> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> >> > To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > _________________________________________
> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>
> >>
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>

From naravive at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 17:00:50 2008
From: naravive at gmail.com (Vivek Narayanan)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:00:50 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Almost Island Dialogues 2: March 6-9,
	New Delhi
Message-ID: <79705fb50803030330l1e5f6211nb2b3c91be15b40b7@mail.gmail.com>

ALMOST ISLAND: DIALOGUES 2

MARCH 6TH TO 9TH 2008: INDIA INTERNATIONAL CENTRE, DELHI


Almost Island is a new online literary magazine based in India, but
international in scope.  We have been trying to slowly unfold and discover a
specific kind of intervention in the Indian context:   we conceive of and
believe in poetry and prose on an equal footing, are interested in and open
to (but certainly not simplistically beholden to) the idea of global
literary avant-gardes and, more generally, literature of a philosophical
nature.  We are not afraid of difficulty, complexity, or seriousness, and
we're certainly not afraid of the effects and legacy of more than a century
of literary modernism!

Part of this agenda is also to foster a higher and more intense level of
literary engagement at the local level by bringing major voices from around
the world in contact with Indian writers.  The idea here is not so much to
be absorbed into the making of literary celebrity, or to make a festival of
India's supposed arrival on the world stage, but to listen closely and to
find ways to think through literature as practicing writers and not as
academics, without, on the other hand, "dumbing down".

 This year the conference will extend from the evening of 6th March 2008 to
the evening of 9th March 2008, at the India International Centre (IIC),
Delhi.  There will be readings each evening, including a rudraveena concert
by Bahauddin Dagar on the night of 6th March.  During the day, there will be
extended discussions and talks.

 The evening readings, from Thursday 6th to Sunday 9th March are open to
all.  The day sessions are also open to all interested participants,
but **please
note that we can only provide lunch for a limited number of participants who
have pre-registered**.

 If you have any questions or clarifications, please contact Kavita Bhanot
at 9871716994 / bhanot.kavita at gmail.com.

 Please find a detailed programme below: 1) bios of panelists / readers; 2)
schedule of evening readings; and 3) details of the day sessions.



*1.  PANELISTS AND READERS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2*

 Bei Dao* is considered the most notable of the "misty poets", a group pf
Chinese poets who opposed the restrictions of the Cultural Revolution; his
oblique verses were memorized by students and chanted at Tiananmen Square,
and as a result he went into in exile from China from 1989 to 2006, when he
was allowed to return to Hong Kong, where he is currently based.  Despite
his fame and the political circumstances of his life, he has continued to
write a poetry that is both formally experimental and insistently difficult,
responding to politics in hidden ways, influenced by the work of Paul
Celan.  He is also the editor in chief of the influential Chinese literary
journal, Jintian.  He has won numerous awards and has been nominated several
times for the Nobel Prize in Literature.

 *Nabaneeta Dev Sen* is one of Bengal's leading writers. She is the author
of over fifteen novels, three books of poetry, children's books, plays and
translations. Her two recent novels are *Dwiragaman* and *Ramdhan Mittir
Lane*. Her most recent collection of poetry is *Shreshtha Kabita*. In 2000
she was awarded the Padma Shri for her contribution to Literature. She has
been for many years, a Professor of Comparative Literature at Jadavpur
University in Kolkata.

 *Claudio Magris* is the author of the novels *A Different Sea* and
*Inferences from a Sabre*, along with scholarly works on Austrian and
Central European literature.   In the English speaking world, he is known
principally as the author of two books, *Danube* (a journey from the source
to the mouth of the river) and *Microcosms*, densely allusive literary
journeys that seem to take the genre of "travelogue" into a class of their
own. Magris teaches German literature at the University in Trieste and has
been for many years a columnist for the Italian daily Corriere Della Sera.  He
has been awarded several prizes, among them the Strega Prize and the Erasmus
Prize, and has also been nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature.

 *Allan Sealy* is the author of several acclaimed novels including *The
Trotter Nama*, *The Everest Hotel*, *The Brainfever Bird* and *Red*. He was
awarded the Commonwealth Prize for *The Trotter Nama* and is a recipient of
the Sahitya Akademi Award.

 *George Szirtes* is one of England's leading poets as well as the
translator of several works from the Hungarian, including novels by Sandor
Marai and Lazlo Krasznakorkai. He has over fifteen collections of poetry,
the most recent being *An English Apocalypse* and *Reel*, which won the T.S.
Eliot prize, Britain's highest honour for a single book of poetry, in 2005.
He currently teaches Creative Writing at the University of East Anglia.

 *Udayan Vajpeyi* is a poet, short story writer and essayist. Among his
books are *Sudeshna*, a book of short stories, two collections of
poetry,  *Kuch
Vakya* and *Paagal Ganitajna ki Kavitayen*, and *Abhed Akash*, a book of
conversations with Mani Kaul. He has also translated the work of Paz, Borges
and Brodsky into Hindi. Mr. Vajpeyi has also written texts for films
directed by Sudhansu Misra and Kumar Shahani. He is a recipient of the
Krishan Baldev Vaid award and is a medical doctor by training.

 Vivek Narayanan's first book of poems, *Universal Beach*, appeared in 2006.
He is an associate editor at the Boston-based international poetry annual,
*Fulcrum*, and is consulting editor of *Almost Island*.  He is based in
Delhi, and works at Sarai-CSDS.

 *Sharmistha Mohanty* is the author of two novels, *Book One* and *New
Life*. Her translation of Rabindranath Tagore's fiction, *Broken Nest and
Other Stories* is due out later this year from Westland Books. She is the
editor of *Almost Island*.



2. SCHEDULE OF EVENING READINGS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2



March 6th-9th, 6:30 p.m.

Venue: *India International Centre Annexe Lawns*


*March 6th – 6.30 pm*


Udayan Vajpeyi
Bei Dao

And closing with a dhrupad performance by Bahauddin Dagar on the
rudra-veena.


*March 7th – 6.30 pm*

 Allan Sealy
Nabaneeta Dev Sen

*March 8th – 6.30 p.m.*

 Vivek Narayanan
George Szirtes

*March 9th – 6.30 p.m.*

 Sharmistha Mohanty
Claudio Magris



*3. PROGRAMME FOR DISCUSSIONS DURING THE DAY*

 The discussions at these dialogues emerge from our own concerns at Almost
Island. We are committed to writing that is continually seeking new paths.
More specifically, these discussions emerge from the writers who come
together for these dialogues---their work, their thoughts. We welcome an
audience that is keen to listen and to interact, question, disagree.

*MARCH 7, 2008*

VENUE: Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre



SESSION 1: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m.
Panelists: Bei Dao, George Szirtes, Nabaneeta Dev Sen, Udayan Vajpeyi, Vivek
Narayanan

Bei Dao says, "Many poets separate their experience from the language they
use in poetry, but in the case of some, like Paul Celan, there is a fusion,
a convergence of experience and experimental language." Can this separation,
and this fusion, be explored?

 George Szirtes says, "Speaking personally, I suspect the poet's key
experience is of the simultaneous treacherousness, fragility and beauty of
language, of the narrow divide between signification and meaninglessness or
distortion of meaning. This is related to the question of community. How far
is the language of the community to be trusted? What if the community
doesn't trust you? What kind of language are you left with outside the
community?"

 Can we look at these questions through the tools of the craft---syntax,
diction, metaphor?

 And, says Nabaneeta Dev Sen, "What about the silences, what the poet does
not wish to say?



SESSION 2: 2.30 – 5.00 p.m.

 A conversation with Bei Dao
with Sharmistha Mohanty and Vivek Narayanan)



*MARCH 8, 2008*:
VENUE:  Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre

SESSION 3: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m.

 A talk by Claudio Magris on the search for form in his work, in
conversation with Sharmistha Mohanty.


SESSION 4: 2.30 – 5 p.m.

Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre
Panelists: Sharmistha Mohanty, Claudio Magris, Allan Sealy, Nabaneeta Dev
Sen

"What then is the place of fact in the writer's imagination? By fact I mean
factual knowledge—whether of history, or geology, or natural
processes--information now so widely available to us about the world. I do
not mean historical novels here, or novels based on obvious realities like a
war, or a natural disaster, I do not mean works of representation. I mean
works of prose where the writer uses different kinds of facts, related or
unrelated, and unifies them in her own vision, creating a new experience, a
new insight.

 "The writer of literature does not use fact as sociological observation,
and stand back. Her self is committed and she builds from the emotions and
ambiguities and mysteries that the fact itself generates. The late W. G.
Sebald was a great practitioner of this mode of writing.

 "How then does fact work as an element that builds emotion and insight, how
does it push the imagination further?"

--Sharmistha Mohanty



*MARCH 9, 2008*
VENUE: FOUNTAIN LAWNS, IIC


 SESSION 5: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m.
Panelists: Allan Sealy, Udayan Vajpeyi, George Szirtes, Vivek Narayanan

"I'm interested in the idea of looking vs. reading, that is, gathering one's
material from the world as opposed to gathering it from books. This is only
partly the contemporary / historical divide; it's also a fact / fiction
fight, with the imagination and truth as referees."
—Allan Sealy

  "As I understand it, Allan's statement points to a long and varied
tradition in literature that (even as it draws on its own past for
sustenance) specifically refuses or qualifies "book learning" and insists
instead on the primacy of direct perception and—perhaps?—the truth of
experience as well.  It's a tradition of "witness" (I think) that could be
drawn through the bhakti poets and William Blake, or from Thoreau through to
Gandhi, or indeed, from Darwin.  (I set aside the debate over empiricism /
vision for the moment.)  Of course on one end of the scale, this is the
naïve belief of many a young writer who might take it as an excuse not to
read; but for an experienced writer (who is by definition well read) it
represents a very different challenge.  Allan's emphasis on "looking"
underlines the fact that it is an active and focused engagement rather than
something to be taken for granted.  This, in a way, could be understood as
literature's special insistence even in our age, its gift to the
disciplines.  In a sense, and in a sense only, this is the opposite of the
"fact" drawn from "sources", and it is found not just in fiction but in
lyric as well.   It relates equally to the relationship between experience
and language that will come up in our first panel.

 "However, it can be harder, today, to make a case for "gathering material
from the world" (or from the self in the world) as a separate, oppositional
activity.  Even if we look beyond postmodernist theories that profoundly
question the very possibility of unmediated perception and / or experience,
we are still stuck with the incredible glut of books and data that we cannot
turn our eyes away from, the very fading away of the material world as
information itself becomes a kind of material. In a current sequence of
poems, Mr. Subramanian, I find myself exploring this mediated reality and
somehow stubbornly, despite everything, find myself looking for and
returning to the truth of experience and of direct perception.  What kind of
sense does the "truth of experience" (and of witness) make today?"

--Vivek Narayanan



SESSION 6: 2.30 – 5.00 P.M.

An open session in which the audience and the panelists can return to
thoughts that have emerged over the course of the conference.
-------------- next part --------------
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https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements

From vivek at sarai.net  Tue Mar  4 11:20:41 2008
From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:20:41 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>	<000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>
	<73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47CCE331.1070208@sarai.net>

Dear Kirdar and Mohit Ray,

Can either of you please explain to me what exactly is so offensive and 
denigrating to Hindus in Inder Salim's post below?  Is it the use of 
varieties of language that one often hears on the street?  Or is it that 
Sita is more heroic than Ram-- as argued by the characters in the first 
section?  Please quote directly from the piece to support your argument. 

Also, I'd like to hear your analysis of the second part of this piece, 
which might be lost in the midst of hullabaloo.  What , for instance, do 
you make of or find offensive about IS's closing paragraph:

"We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,  if any, were written by 
the billions and billions of our predecessors.  And since they are 
living within us as well, we are experiencing their fates too. Are not 
we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our past?   Ontologically we 
are moving to and fro, so we may write a word or not even, the fact of 
being of our existence remains."

?
Vivek

kirdar singh wrote:
> I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
> expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
> this list is hanging by a thin thread.
>
> MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
> deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
> Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
> continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
> the road and narrate it to the people.
>
> (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)
>
> Kirdar
>
>
>
> On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
>   
>> Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
>> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
>> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
>> Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
>>
>>
>>     
>>>    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht (
>>>    Crematorium in Delhi)
>>>
>>>    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram
>>>
>>>    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
>>>
>>>    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to
>>>         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed,
>>>          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
>>>
>>>    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
>>>             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
>>>
>>>    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to
>>> Raju)
>>>
>>>    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead (
>>>             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram
>>> Ram
>>>            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
>>>
>>>    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
>>>             how are we Ravana then.
>>>
>>>    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
>>>             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
>>>
>>>    Ajay: He too is Gandu
>>>
>>>    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
>>>
>>>    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
>>>            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.
>>>
>>>    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't
>>>            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
>>> over there.
>>>
>>>    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
>>>            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
>>>
>>>    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
>>>              sleep with was kidnapped once.
>>>
>>>    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
>>>           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time
>>> to ask
>>>          all these questions.
>>>
>>>    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
>>>            fucks the kidnapped girl.
>>>
>>>    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
>>>            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband
>>> and God
>>>          Rama.
>>>
>>>    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
>>>            think who would have come to rescue her.
>>>
>>>    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
>>>
>>>    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
>>>             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
>>> possession of evil
>>>             Ravana.
>>>
>>>    Ajay: And he really banished her?
>>>
>>>    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
>>>
>>>    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
>>>
>>>    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
>>>
>>>    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't
>>>            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
>>> This world is
>>>            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
>>>
>>>    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...
>>>
>>>    (2)
>>>
>>>    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
>>>    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
>>>    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
>>>    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
>>>    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
>>>
>>>    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and
>>>    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just
>>>    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
>>>    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area.
>>>
>>>    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
>>>
>>>    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
>>>    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called
>>>    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
>>>    is a meaningful time pass.
>>>
>>>    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I
>>>    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then
>>>    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
>>>    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
>>>    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone
>>>    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
>>>    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
>>>    wisest of all.
>>>
>>>    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
>>>    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a
>>>    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
>>>    but sooner they will cease to be.
>>>
>>>    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
>>>    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
>>>    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
>>>    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps,
>>>    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is
>>>    that true?
>>>
>>>     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so
>>>    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
>>>    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
>>>    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
>>>    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the
>>>    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
>>>
>>>    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes
>>>    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
>>>    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
>>>    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this
>>>    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
>>>    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need
>>>    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
>>>    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
>>>    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe that
>>>    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
>>>    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,
>>>    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors.
>>>    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their
>>>    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
>>>    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word
>>>    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains.
>>>
>>>   


From vivek at sarai.net  Tue Mar  4 11:26:23 2008
From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:26:23 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
In-Reply-To: <e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com>	<"e3
	91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net>	<200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net>	<"47e122a70803010633q5
	99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com>	<6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com>	<7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<e317a89a1754a.47cc04d6@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <47CCE487.9070404@sarai.net>

Dear Radhikarajen,

Can you show me exactly how, and where, the essay by A.K. Ramanujan is 
denigrating to Hinduism?   Please quote at least one sentence, or even 
one phrase, if you can, from the essay which denigrates Hinduism.  (I'm 
assuming that you have actually read the complete essay.)

As far as I can tell, Ramanujan's essay is a great tribute to Hindu 
(and, more generally, South Asian) storytelling traditions.

Vivek

radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote:
> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places of learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism at work. !
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Prem Chandavarkar <prem.cnt at gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History
> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>
>   
>> On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's 
>>>       
>> that we
>>     
>>> recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few
>>> hundred
>>> more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets 
>>>       
>> for a
>>     
>>> change
>>> concentrate on the original source while studying history in an
>>> institution
>>> rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc.
>>>       
>> To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the 
>> reason why
>> this discussion thread started in the first place.  It implies 
>> that there is
>> a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many 
>> secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior 
>> and ignorable.
>>
>> Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and
>> intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made.  It 
>> cannot be
>> merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief 
>> or a
>> historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the 
>> argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid.
>>
>> Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put
>> forward the following proposition:  The archive is an ethical, 
>> rather than
>> epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline.  History 
>> cannot be
>> ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an
>> ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be 
>> categorised as
>> archive, or dismissed as non-archive.
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with 
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>> list 
>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>     
> ________


From pkray11 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 12:35:23 2008
From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:35:23 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] film fest notice
Message-ID: <98f331e00803032305k4e364cc8u5dddd451d338ca90@mail.gmail.com>

3
CINEMELA 2008
a festival of short films & documentaries
by
YOUNG filmmakers
(and by those who consider themselves YOUNG!!)

11-13 April 2008
Jawaharlal Nehru University
New Delhi

Entries should reach on or before 25 March, 2008.
Format –DVD or VCD (two copies of each entry)
Films must be sub-titled in English
Enclose a brief synopsis, CV with photograph, details of crew and a
declaration of participation.

Filmmakers are requested to send a short note on "Why I make films"
and some stills, posters and publicity material.
(not mandatory)

No bar on numbers of entries and length or theme of the films.
Films can be experimental, animation, musical, in fact, anything.

NO ENTRY FEE

All are requested to contribute generously
since the festival does not accept any corporate or commercial sponsorship.
A little contribution will be a great boost for our effort.
Send your contribution as cheque/demand draft payable to
Prakash Kumar Ray and payable at Delhi/New Delhi.

The films will remain with the Cinemela Collectives and a collection of
films
from the festival shall be screened at other campuses and places.
The certificate of participation shall be issued to all participants.
The films screened in the festival shall not be returned. Those who want
their films be returned should send Rs 250 as the cost of packing and
postage (as cheque/demand draft payable to Prakash Kumar Ray and payable at
Delhi/New Delhi).

Send your entries and contribution to –
Prakash Kumar Ray
225, Sutlej Hostel, Jawaharlal Nehru University,
New Delhi – 110067.

phone
(0) 9873313315

mail
cinemela at gmail.com
pkray11 at gmail.com

web
www.cinemela.blogspot.com
(Details of previous festivals are also there)


The festival has no jury since there is no award. We try to screen all
entries along with some films from seniors, however, a committee will select
the films to be screened. We seek your cooperation and support in this
endeavour.

In solidarity,
Prakash Kumar Ray
Convenor, Cinemela Collectives

From namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in  Tue Mar  4 14:29:32 2008
From: namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in (Namrata Kakkar)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:59:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima --hate speaker?
Message-ID: <934902.63174.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com>

 Please read Iqbal A. Ansari's article Free
Speech-Hate Speech : The Taslima Nasreen Case in the
EPW ( Feb. 23, 2008. Despite arguing for the ban (
which projects Taslima as indulging in  hate speech),
it owes a lot to the debate that was going on at the
Sarai Reader's List. Owes ...yet without
anacknowledgement.
But the List knows...
Namrata


      Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/

From kauladityaraj at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 16:36:53 2008
From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:36:53 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] An evening of Kashmir Past & Present
In-Reply-To: <6353c690803040250t674ae786sce51eb46bf8a2862@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6353c690803040250t674ae786sce51eb46bf8a2862@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6353c690803040306l17d42984g9c5ac521fdbdf9b0@mail.gmail.com>

*An evening of Kashmir Past & Present*
*Aastha Manocha, Kashmir Live, Indian Express Group
 *
** *Pain is universal, that is why humans can shed tears over others' grief,
but it is humans only who are capable of tormenting fellow humans too. Both
these facets were seen as regards Kashmir, in Chandigarh on the evening of
29th February.
 *
*The Chandigarh chapter of Roots in Kashmir, a Kashmiri youth initiative,
had staged a play called 'Trishna' (longing) on the sufferings undergone by
the Kashmiri Hindus, popularly known as Kashmiri Pandits, in the peak of the
militancy, which eventually led to the mass exodus of the minority Kashmiri
Pandits from the valley into sub-human camps in Jammu and Delhi. *

Read more @ http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/

*Thanks*
**
*On behalf of Roots In Kashmir - www.rootsinkashmir.org *
*Aditya Raj Kaul*

From kirdarsingh at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 17:37:15 2008
From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:37:15 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
In-Reply-To: <47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>
	<73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Vivek
I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that
some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit"
folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and
you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for
you and vis a versa.

Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I
don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past
and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language
and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's
following phrase very seriously:

"Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this."

Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his
religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a
Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the
fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a
"provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a
further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of
such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims.
Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which
you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer
creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify).

But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want
to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer
be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned,
Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings
first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you
may disagree.

Kirdar

(and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got
the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences)




On 3/3/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
> Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant
> corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid
> communalism, sheer poverty etc etc..,
>
>  How to define a proud Indian?
>
> Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set
> up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies
> and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the
> brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe
> madness even.
>
> Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that
> the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is
> announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a
> great country called Bharat, but how to understand  this country which
> is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions
> when a decent looking  judge sits across a poor petty under trail
> thief. And when the frustrated thief  manages to throw shit on Judge's
> face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The
> petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and
> decent citizens of shining India.
>
> And this John Nobody called inder salim is  pointing out all this for
> his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even,
> seriously )
>
> Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not  Delhi's
> Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples ,
> gurudwaras and  mosques  are erected illegally on government lands.
> The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India.
>  Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal
> tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari
> corner shop.
>
> And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in
> every sacred calendar.  Of course, that is the people's choice, but do
> they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to
> see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But
> if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very
> individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their
> way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are
> free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not
> work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai.
>
> Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the
> number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are  made of
> such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for
> their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes
> in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not
> this absurd?
>
> I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of
> Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred
> scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world
> as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ?
>
> It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to
> Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal,
> VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo
> -liberalism of Bengali Left.  The world would have been a peaceful
> place to live in if  these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were
> not born.
>
>  The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without
> dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other.  I believe,
> there is no full stop in a discourse…
>
> What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar?
>
> With love and regards
> is
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
> >  expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
> >  this list is hanging by a thin thread.
> >
> >  MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
> >  deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
> >  Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
> >  continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
> >  the road and narrate it to the people.
> >
> >  (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)
> >
> >  Kirdar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
> >  > Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
> >  > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
> >  > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
> >  >
> >  > ----- Original Message -----
> >  > From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >  > To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >  > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
> >  > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > >    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht (
> >  > >    Crematorium in Delhi)
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to
> >  > >         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed,
> >  > >          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
> >  > >             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to
> >  > > Raju)
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead (
> >  > >             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram
> >  > > Ram
> >  > >            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
> >  > >             how are we Ravana then.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
> >  > >             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: He too is Gandu
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
> >  > >            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't
> >  > >            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
> >  > > over there.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
> >  > >            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
> >  > >              sleep with was kidnapped once.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
> >  > >           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time
> >  > > to ask
> >  > >          all these questions.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
> >  > >            fucks the kidnapped girl.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
> >  > >            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband
> >  > > and God
> >  > >          Rama.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
> >  > >            think who would have come to rescue her.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
> >  > >             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
> >  > > possession of evil
> >  > >             Ravana.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: And he really banished her?
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't
> >  > >            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
> >  > > This world is
> >  > >            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...
> >  > >
> >  > >    (2)
> >  > >
> >  > >    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
> >  > >    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
> >  > >    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
> >  > >    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
> >  > >    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and
> >  > >    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just
> >  > >    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
> >  > >    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
> >  > >    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called
> >  > >    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
> >  > >    is a meaningful time pass.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I
> >  > >    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then
> >  > >    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
> >  > >    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
> >  > >    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone
> >  > >    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
> >  > >    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
> >  > >    wisest of all.
> >  > >
> >  > >    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
> >  > >    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a
> >  > >    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
> >  > >    but sooner they will cease to be.
> >  > >
> >  > >    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
> >  > >    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
> >  > >    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
> >  > >    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps,
> >  > >    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is
> >  > >    that true?
> >  > >
> >  > >     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so
> >  > >    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
> >  > >    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
> >  > >    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
> >  > >    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the
> >  > >    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
> >  > >
> >  > >    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes
> >  > >    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
> >  > >    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
> >  > >    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this
> >  > >    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
> >  > >    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need
> >  > >    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
> >  > >    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
> >  > >    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe that
> >  > >    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
> >  > >    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,
> >  > >    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors.
> >  > >    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their
> >  > >    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
> >  > >    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word
> >  > >    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85
> >  > >
> >  > >    ( to be continued..
> >  > > _________________________________________
> >  > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >  > > Critiques & Collaborations
> >  > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >  > > subscribe in the subject header.
> >  > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >  > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >  >
> >  > _________________________________________
> >  > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >  > Critiques & Collaborations
> >  > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> >  > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >  > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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From mrsg at vsnl.com  Tue Mar  4 20:44:36 2008
From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:44:36 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<"0	0	0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY>
	<"73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f949	40	82d7"@mail.gmail.com>
	<73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY>

Mr. Kirdar Singh, how do you know MRSG is a hindu? What I have written on
Muhammad (marrying own adopted son's wife and Ayesha's affair in the desert)
is quite well known.  Muhammad's marriage to his adopted son's former wife,
Zaynab bint Jashplease can be found in any standard text on this subject.
How Ayesha got lost in desert and then to clear her up from charges,
Muhammad got a new revealation - these are well discussed issues. Please
take a little pain to find those.
Thanks

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kirdar singh" <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
To: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>; <mrsg at vsnl.com>; <vivek at sarai.net>
Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju


Dear Vivek
I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that
some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit"
folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and
you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for
you and vis a versa.

Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I
don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past
and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language
and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's
following phrase very seriously:

"Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this."

Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his
religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a
Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the
fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a
"provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a
further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of
such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims.
Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which
you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer
creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify).

But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want
to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer
be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned,
Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings
first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you
may disagree.

Kirdar

(and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got
the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences)




On 3/3/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
> Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant
> corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid
> communalism, sheer poverty etc etc..,
>
>  How to define a proud Indian?
>
> Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set
> up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies
> and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the
> brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe
> madness even.
>
> Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that
> the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is
> announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a
> great country called Bharat, but how to understand  this country which
> is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions
> when a decent looking  judge sits across a poor petty under trail
> thief. And when the frustrated thief  manages to throw shit on Judge's
> face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The
> petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and
> decent citizens of shining India.
>
> And this John Nobody called inder salim is  pointing out all this for
> his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even,
> seriously )
>
> Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not  Delhi's
> Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples ,
> gurudwaras and  mosques  are erected illegally on government lands.
> The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India.
>  Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal
> tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari
> corner shop.
>
> And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in
> every sacred calendar.  Of course, that is the people's choice, but do
> they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to
> see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But
> if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very
> individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their
> way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are
> free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not
> work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai.
>
> Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the
> number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are  made of
> such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for
> their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes
> in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not
> this absurd?
>
> I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of
> Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred
> scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world
> as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ?
>
> It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to
> Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal,
> VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo
> -liberalism of Bengali Left.  The world would have been a peaceful
> place to live in if  these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were
> not born.
>
>  The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without
> dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other.  I believe,
> there is no full stop in a discourse…
>
> What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar?
>
> With love and regards
> is
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
> >  expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
> >  this list is hanging by a thin thread.
> >
> >  MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
> >  deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
> >  Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
> >  continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
> >  the road and narrate it to the people.
> >
> >  (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)
> >
> >  Kirdar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
> >  > Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and
> > make
> >  > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife
> > Ayesha
> >  > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
> >  >
> >  > ----- Original Message -----
> >  > From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >  > To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >  > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
> >  > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > >    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh
> > Gaht (
> >  > >    Crematorium in Delhi)
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram
> > , Ram
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never
> > went to
> >  > >         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass
> > screwed,
> >  > >          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people
> > call
> >  > >             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja
> > chilam to
> >  > > Raju)
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the
> > dead (
> >  > >             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also
> > uttered Ram
> >  > > Ram
> >  > >            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata.
> > But
> >  > >             how are we Ravana then.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
> >  > >             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: He too is Gandu
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we
> > are
> >  > >            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are
> > bad.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me,
> > don't
> >  > >            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living
> > just
> >  > > over there.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the
> > rich
> >  > >            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl
> > you
> >  > >              sleep with was kidnapped once.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly
> > questions,
> >  > >           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get
> > time
> >  > > to ask
> >  > >          all these questions.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us
> > who
> >  > >            fucks the kidnapped girl.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,
> > not
> >  > >            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her
> > husband
> >  > > and God
> >  > >          Rama.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age,
> > and
> >  > >            think who would have come to rescue her.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by
> > Lord
> >  > >             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
> >  > > possession of evil
> >  > >             Ravana.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: And he really banished her?
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
> >  > >
> >  > >    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I
> > don't
> >  > >            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
> >  > > This world is
> >  > >            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the
> > light...
> >  > >
> >  > >    (2)
> >  > >
> >  > >    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
> >  > >    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
> >  > >    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but
> > poetry
> >  > >    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
> >  > >    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats
> > bread and
> >  > >    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But
> > it just
> >  > >    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in
> > such a
> >  > >    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread
> > area.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
> >  > >    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals
> > called
> >  > >    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the
> > best
> >  > >    is a meaningful time pass.
> >  > >
> >  > >    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread
> > piece I
> >  > >    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond,
> > then
> >  > >    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is
> > unlikely,
> >  > >    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed
> > over to
> >  > >    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let
> > alone
> >  > >    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each
> > known
> >  > >    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is
> > the
> >  > >    wisest of all.
> >  > >
> >  > >    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
> >  > >    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange
> > them on a
> >  > >    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a
> > language,
> >  > >    but sooner they will cease to be.
> >  > >
> >  > >    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with
> > the
> >  > >    stock of words already available with me, which I naively
> > believe is
> >  > >    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
> >  > >    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which
> > perhaps,
> >  > >    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of
> > words. Is
> >  > >    that true?
> >  > >
> >  > >     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask
> > jumps, so
> >  > >    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers
> > can
> >  > >    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with
> > other
> >  > >    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
> >  > >    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit
> > around the
> >  > >    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
> >  > >
> >  > >    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who
> > makes
> >  > >    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative
> > conditions.
> >  > >    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God
> > is
> >  > >    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah,
> > this
> >  > >    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
> >  > >    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth
> > I need
> >  > >    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then
> > I
> >  > >    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has
> > written
> >  > >    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe
> > that
> >  > >    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for
> > us
> >  > >    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our
> > misfortunes,
> >  > >    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our
> > predecessors.
> >  > >    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing
> > their
> >  > >    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of
> > our
> >  > >    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write
> > a word
> >  > >    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85
> >  > >
> >  > >    ( to be continued..
> >  > > _________________________________________
> >  > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >  > > Critiques & Collaborations
> >  > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >  > > subscribe in the subject header.
> >  > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >  > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >  >
> >  > _________________________________________
> >  > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >  > Critiques & Collaborations
> >  > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >  > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >  > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>


From mrsg at vsnl.com  Tue Mar  4 19:51:28 2008
From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:51:28 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<"0	0	0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY>
	<73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<47CCE331.1070208@sarai.net>
Message-ID: <000401c87e0a$a2acb760$0201a8c0@MRAY>

Dear Vivek Narayan
I have not asked any explanation from Inder Salim or said anything against 
his posting also. I only asked for a story on Muhammad also based on 
historical fact. I would rather ask you to explain what made you suddenly 
jump in this issue,- too much hurt getting that some truth on Muhammad 
getting exposed through this reader list.
Mohit Ray


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Vivek Narayanan" <vivek at sarai.net>
To: "kirdar singh" <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
Cc: "MRSG" <mrsg at vsnl.com>; "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju


> Dear Kirdar and Mohit Ray,
>
> Can either of you please explain to me what exactly is so offensive and 
> denigrating to Hindus in Inder Salim's post below?  Is it the use of 
> varieties of language that one often hears on the street?  Or is it that 
> Sita is more heroic than Ram-- as argued by the characters in the first 
> section?  Please quote directly from the piece to support your argument.
> Also, I'd like to hear your analysis of the second part of this piece, 
> which might be lost in the midst of hullabaloo.  What , for instance, do 
> you make of or find offensive about IS's closing paragraph:
>
> "We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes,  if any, were written by 
> the billions and billions of our predecessors.  And since they are living 
> within us as well, we are experiencing their fates too. Are not we a 
> conglomeration of echoes and traces of our past?   Ontologically we are 
> moving to and fro, so we may write a word or not even, the fact of being 
> of our existence remains."
>
> ?
> Vivek
>
> kirdar singh wrote:
>> I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
>> expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
>> this list is hanging by a thin thread.
>>
>> MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
>> deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
>> Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
>> continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
>> the road and narrate it to the people.
>>
>> (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)
>>
>> Kirdar
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
>>> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife 
>>> Ayesha
>>> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
>>> Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht 
>>>> (
>>>>    Crematorium in Delhi)
>>>>
>>>>    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , 
>>>> Ram
>>>>
>>>>    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went 
>>>> to
>>>>         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass 
>>>> screwed,
>>>>          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call
>>>>             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam 
>>>> to
>>>> Raju)
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead 
>>>> (
>>>>             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered 
>>>> Ram
>>>> Ram
>>>>            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But
>>>>             how are we Ravana then.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
>>>>             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: He too is Gandu
>>>>
>>>>    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are
>>>>            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, 
>>>> don't
>>>>            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living just
>>>> over there.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich
>>>>            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you
>>>>              sleep with was kidnapped once.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions,
>>>>           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get 
>>>> time
>>>> to ask
>>>>          all these questions.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us who
>>>>            fucks the kidnapped girl.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,  not
>>>>            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband
>>>> and God
>>>>          Rama.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and
>>>>            think who would have come to rescue her.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord
>>>>             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
>>>> possession of evil
>>>>             Ravana.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: And he really banished her?
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
>>>>
>>>>    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I 
>>>> don't
>>>>            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
>>>> This world is
>>>>            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
>>>>
>>>>    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light...
>>>>
>>>>    (2)
>>>>
>>>>    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
>>>>    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
>>>>    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry
>>>>    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
>>>>    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
>>>>
>>>>    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread 
>>>> and
>>>>    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it 
>>>> just
>>>>    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a
>>>>    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread 
>>>> area.
>>>>
>>>>    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
>>>>
>>>>    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
>>>>    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals 
>>>> called
>>>>    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best
>>>>    is a meaningful time pass.
>>>>
>>>>    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece 
>>>> I
>>>>    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, 
>>>> then
>>>>    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely,
>>>>    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to
>>>>    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let 
>>>> alone
>>>>    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known
>>>>    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the
>>>>    wisest of all.
>>>>
>>>>    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
>>>>    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on 
>>>> a
>>>>    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language,
>>>>    but sooner they will cease to be.
>>>>
>>>>    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the
>>>>    stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is
>>>>    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
>>>>    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which 
>>>> perhaps,
>>>>    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. 
>>>> Is
>>>>    that true?
>>>>
>>>>     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, 
>>>> so
>>>>    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can
>>>>    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other
>>>>    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
>>>>    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around 
>>>> the
>>>>    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
>>>>
>>>>    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who 
>>>> makes
>>>>    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions.
>>>>    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is
>>>>    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, 
>>>> this
>>>>    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
>>>>    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I 
>>>> need
>>>>    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I
>>>>    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written
>>>>    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe 
>>>> that
>>>>    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us
>>>>    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our 
>>>> misfortunes,
>>>>    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our 
>>>> predecessors.
>>>>    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing 
>>>> their
>>>>    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our
>>>>    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a 
>>>> word
>>>>    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains.
>>>>
>>>>
> 


From padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 20:55:45 2008
From: padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com (Padmalatha Ravi)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 20:55:45 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Women's Film Festival on March 8
Message-ID: <bff1ee500803040725s9f39f78gf8435a9cb6d235c9@mail.gmail.com>

*Just Femme*

&

Suchitra Film Society

 Present

Women's Film Festival

On March 8, International Women's Day

3 PM onwards

Venue: Suchitra Film Society, #36, 9th Main (BV Karanth Road), Banashankari
2nd Stage, Bangalore

Phone: 26711785

Entry is free

The festival features five short films, chronicling women's lives in
contemporary India. For more details about the films, visit
www.justfemme.inor contact Just Femme at 9741437431.

*About Us*: Just Femme is an online women's magazine, meant to be a space to
discuss issues that affect women. This is an effort to give voice to those
opinions that otherwise go unheard. Just Femme's writers are largely first
timers –- women who are touched by these issues, should ideally have a say
in it but don't.

There is strength in numbers. Given a wider platform, the Just Femme writer
is encouraged to talk about her concerns freely and hopefully take a stand.
This is where she can say what she wants and collect her bouquets or
brickbats, share thoughts and opinions.

The Just Femme film festival that is being held on the International Women's
Day brings together a collection of documentaries and docu-dramas about
women; snapshots of courage and perseverance, of the fight against age-old
stereotypes, of victims and winners.

Just Femme is a voluntary and non-profit venture. It accepts relevant
articles from women writers above 16 years of age. If you are interested to
be part of this group please send a mail to justfemme.in at gmail.com with the
subject "contribute" along with a short introduction of yourself.

From indersalim at gmail.com  Wed Mar  5 01:06:47 2008
From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 01:06:47 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
In-Reply-To: <000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY>
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY>
Message-ID: <47e122a70803041136n432ee95fgf5fa6629bdde3a9c@mail.gmail.com>

dear  Kirdar and dear MRSG

Ghalib says, "Aasan kahnay ki kartay hain farmaish, Goyam Mushkil va
garna goyam muskil " ( The popular demand is that I ought to be
simple, but it is difficult for me if it is not difficult)

I am certainly not in that league of  sheer complexity of gifted poets
like Ghalib .  They had the capacity to be simple and complex at the
same time with an amazing grace.  Mr. Kirdar appreciates my neither
being Muslim nor Hindu, but he sees me meritless. I also appreciate
the idea of my being as neither Hindu nor Muslim, but I see a profound
merit in this idea, unlike Mr. Kirdar.

 Mr. Kirdar writes: " we do not want to simplify and straighten our
communication since it would no longer be creative"  Well said, but in
the very next line, you  demand that I should clarify why I wrote the
provocative piece in the first place.  You found sheer creativity in
that piece, which again is flattering, but irresponsibly provocative.
Now please elucidate upon the significance of ' creative' in our lives
lest it might be futile to employ ' the creative' in removing the
misunderstanding between the two: Hindu and Muslims. It is as you see
it. But  I understand that only creativity can heal the aching
humanity, and I believe, that everybody is potentially a creative
person, and must be provided with necessary confidence to realize
that.  That is political, isn't that?

Respected  MRGS, your way of looking at History is little different
from what I see it should be.  I believe, history is a little more
deeper than what we learn from history books. It is  vastly embedded
in the archival material scattered all over the world. I believe, a
good historian studies painting, poetry, architecture, garments, food
habits besides written material while arriving at a conclusion about a
particular historical event or era. Here, again, I guess a good
historian never concludes .  Now, for example, you know everything
everything everything  about Islam and its history, then even you can
not say what it is as it was. Islam is popular not because of it is
history, but because it has its own spirituality which is not
different from other forms of religion.

Now, the problem is that we have a Maulana  sahib from a small town in
UP versus a Pandit ji who is a pujari of a small temple in Bihari
colony, shahdara, Delhi. Now both of them have their own opinions on
history, and their own ways of observing religion; and both have ample
time and energy to spew venom on Taslima Nasreen and MF Hussain
respectively.

Now, how come I am supposed to limit my creativity ( of whatever
intensity ) to suit the above  so called representative faces of
Hindus and Muslims.   I have my own way of looking at history and
mythology. I like some fragments, here and there. I mix the fragments
with my own imagination and do something else and call it my own
religion. I am  a boring artists, you may like my product or not, but
I believe that every body should indulge in this kind of
chutnification ( a phrase coined by Salman Rushdie ).  Two imaginary
characters Ajay and Raju are also free to mix what they want. Why Ajay
and Raju should listen to you only, and not to me. What is interesting
that they have their own  way of looking at things, and we rarely care
to know what it is.

In short, it is between me and my subject. It is like between  Prophet
Mohammad and the Mountain. It is like between the poet Valmiki and
Lord Ram. What is between you and me should have some intensity, if
not as intense as that, and less than that is a time wasting prose.

love and regards
inder salim

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 8:44 PM, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
> Mr. Kirdar Singh, how do you know MRSG is a hindu? What I have written on
>  Muhammad (marrying own adopted son's wife and Ayesha's affair in the desert)
>  is quite well known.  Muhammad's marriage to his adopted son's former wife,
>  Zaynab bint Jashplease can be found in any standard text on this subject.
>  How Ayesha got lost in desert and then to clear her up from charges,
>  Muhammad got a new revealation - these are well discussed issues. Please
>  take a little pain to find those.
>  Thanks
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "kirdar singh" <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
>  To: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>; <mrsg at vsnl.com>; <vivek at sarai.net>
>  Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:37 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
>
>
>  Dear Vivek
>  I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that
>  some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit"
>  folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and
>  you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for
>  you and vis a versa.
>
>  Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I
>  don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past
>  and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language
>  and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's
>  following phrase very seriously:
>
>  "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this."
>
>  Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his
>  religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a
>  Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the
>  fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a
>  "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a
>  further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of
>  such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims.
>  Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which
>  you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer
>  creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify).
>
>  But I think that's what most of us don't want to do -we do not want
>  to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer
>  be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned,
>  Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings
>  first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you
>  may disagree.
>
>  Kirdar
>
>  (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got
>  the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences)
>
>
>
>
>  On 3/3/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > Dear all,
>  > Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant
>  > corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid
>  > communalism, sheer poverty etc etc..,
>  >
>  >  How to define a proud Indian?
>  >
>  > Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set
>  > up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies
>  > and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the
>  > brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe
>  > madness even.
>  >
>  > Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that
>  > the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is
>  > announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a
>  > great country called Bharat, but how to understand  this country which
>  > is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions
>  > when a decent looking  judge sits across a poor petty under trail
>  > thief. And when the frustrated thief  manages to throw shit on Judge's
>  > face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The
>  > petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and
>  > decent citizens of shining India.
>  >
>  > And this John Nobody called inder salim is  pointing out all this for
>  > his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even,
>  > seriously )
>  >
>  > Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not  Delhi's
>  > Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples ,
>  > gurudwaras and  mosques  are erected illegally on government lands.
>  > The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India.
>  >  Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal
>  > tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari
>  > corner shop.
>  >
>  > And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in
>  > every sacred calendar.  Of course, that is the people's choice, but do
>  > they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to
>  > see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But
>  > if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very
>  > individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their
>  > way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are
>  > free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not
>  > work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai.
>  >
>  > Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the
>  > number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are  made of
>  > such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for
>  > their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes
>  > in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not
>  > this absurd?
>  >
>  > I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of
>  > Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred
>  > scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world
>  > as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ?
>  >
>  > It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to
>  > Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal,
>  > VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo
>  > -liberalism of Bengali Left.  The world would have been a peaceful
>  > place to live in if  these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were
>  > not born.
>  >
>  >  The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without
>  > dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other.  I believe,
>  > there is no full stop in a discourse…
>  >
>  > What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar?
>  >
>  > With love and regards
>  > is
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
>  > wrote:
>  > > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free
>  > >  expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on
>  > >  this list is hanging by a thin thread.
>  > >
>  > >  MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and
>  > >  deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder
>  > >  Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to
>  > >  continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on
>  > >  the road and narrate it to the people.
>  > >
>  > >  (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?)
>  > >
>  > >  Kirdar
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  On 3/3/08, MRSG <mrsg at vsnl.com> wrote:
>  > >  > Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and
>  > > make
>  > >  > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife
>  > > Ayesha
>  > >  > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > >  > From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>  > >  > To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
>  > >  > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM
>  > >  > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
>  > >  >
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >    On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh
>  > > Gaht (
>  > >  > >    Crematorium in Delhi)
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram
>  > > , Ram
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ram when they bring a  'laash' ( corpse)  for burning.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never
>  > > went to
>  > >  > >         school, But you gandu  ( Gandu is someone who get his ass
>  > > screwed,
>  > >  > >          rather relishes the act ), you also don't know.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people
>  > > call
>  > >  > >             Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back .
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja
>  > > chilam to
>  > >  > > Raju)
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the
>  > > dead (
>  > >  > >             laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also
>  > > uttered Ram
>  > >  > > Ram
>  > >  > >            when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata.
>  > > But
>  > >  > >             how are we Ravana then.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the
>  > >  > >             Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay )
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: He too is Gandu
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju:  Look, we also do bad things. That is why.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we
>  > > are
>  > >  > >            dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are
>  > > bad.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me,
>  > > don't
>  > >  > >            you go to sleep with a  Gashti ( prostitute ) living
>  > > just
>  > >  > > over there.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay:  yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the
>  > > rich
>  > >  > >            people do it, and so what is wrong with it.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl
>  > > you
>  > >  > >              sleep with was kidnapped once.
>  > >> >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly
>  > > questions,
>  > >  > >           behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get
>  > > time
>  > >  > > to ask
>  > >  > >          all these questions.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: No, I was thinking,  is not a little Ravana in all of us
>  > > who
>  > >  > >            fucks the kidnapped girl.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy,
>  > > not
>  > >  > >            like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her
>  > > husband
>  > >  > > and God
>  > >  > >          Rama.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age,
>  > > and
>  > >  > >            think who would have come to rescue her.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by
>  > > Lord
>  > >  > >             Rama because people questioned her purity while in
>  > >  > > possession of evil
>  > >  > >             Ravana.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: And he really banished her?
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I
>  > > don't
>  > >  > >            smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam.
>  > >  > > This world is
>  > >  > >            a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the
>  > > light...
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    (2)
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Just quenched my thirst,  but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not
>  > >  > >    thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I?
>  > >  > >    Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but
>  > > poetry
>  > >  > >    is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded
>  > >  > >    artificially with a deeper question on desire.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats
>  > > bread and
>  > >  > >    the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But
>  > > it just
>  > >  > >    happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in
>  > > such a
>  > >  > >    way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread
>  > > area.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected
>  > >  > >    profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals
>  > > called
>  > >  > >    'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the
>  > > best
>  > >  > >    is a meaningful time pass.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread
>  > > piece I
>  > >  > >    eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond,
>  > > then
>  > >  > >    I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is
>  > > unlikely,
>  > >  > >    since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed
>  > > over to
>  > >  > >    words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let
>  > > alone
>  > >  > >    this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each
>  > > known
>  > >  > >    with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is
>  > > the
>  > >  > >    wisest of all.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with
>  > >  > >    forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange
>  > > them on a
>  > >  > >    black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a
>  > > language,
>  > >  > >    but sooner they will cease to be.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with
>  > > the
>  > >  > >    stock of words already available with me, which I naively
>  > > believe is
>  > >  > >    vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I
>  > >  > >    managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which
>  > > perhaps,
>  > >  > >    betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of
>  > > words. Is
>  > >  > >    that true?
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >     No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask
>  > > jumps, so
>  > >  > >    does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers
>  > > can
>  > >  > >    hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with
>  > > other
>  > >  > >    word.  One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of
>  > >  > >    children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit
>  > > around the
>  > >  > >    mother-word and listen a bed time story even.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who
>  > > makes
>  > >  > >    his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative
>  > > conditions.
>  > >  > >    He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God
>  > > is
>  > >  > >    supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah,
>  > > this
>  > >  > >    business of writing the fates of others. I  should not, if I too
>  > >  > >    believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth
>  > > I need
>  > >  > >    to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then
>  > > I
>  > >  > >    have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has
>  > > written
>  > >  > >    his fate, then I should re-write his fate.  But I firmly believe
>  > > that
>  > >  > >    God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for
>  > > us
>  > >  > >    mortals on this earth.  We collectively own our past. Our
>  > > misfortunes,
>  > >  > >    if any, were written by the billions and billions of our
>  > > predecessors.
>  > >  > >    And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing
>  > > their
>  > >  > >    fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of
>  > > our
>  > >  > >    past?   Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write
>  > > a word
>  > >  > >    or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >    ( to be continued..
>  > >  > > _________________________________________
>  > >  > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>  > >  > > Critiques & Collaborations
>  > >  > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>  > >  > > subscribe in the subject header.
>  > >  > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>  > >  > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > _________________________________________
>  > >  > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>  > >  > Critiques & Collaborations
>  > >  > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>  > > subscribe in the subject header.
>  > >  > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>  > >  > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  >
>  > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>  > _________________________________________
>  > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>  > Critiques & Collaborations
>  > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>  > subscribe in the subject header.
>  > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>  > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>



-- 

http://indersalim.livejournal.com

From vivek at sarai.net  Wed Mar  5 02:03:00 2008
From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:03:00 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>	
	<000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>	
	<73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com>	
	<47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47CDB1FC.9060306@sarai.net>

Dear Kirdar and Mohit,

(incidentally my "bullshit" folder is reserved essentially for people 
who habitually post more than two repetitive, content-less mails in a 
day, to this list)

Firstly to Kirdar: you say you have a problem with the "language and the 
symbolism" of Inder Salim's posting, although you still do not give 
direct quotations from the piece to explain yourself.  As a result, I 
still have no idea what you mean by symbolism.  Please explain, giving 
direct quotations please, what about the *symbolism * you consider 
offensive, especially religiously offensive, which is what you are 
implying.  This is not self evident, because I especially do not find 
any offensive religious references in Inder's posting.  (Apart from the 
fact that, in keeping with many ancient South Asian philosophical 
traditions, he denies the existence of god.  Nothing new or offensive in 
that.) Only Ravana is called a gandu-- and while some other south 
indians on this list may, and perhaps should, take offense to such 
outright denigration of our great hero, Rama, on the other side, is at 
all points referred to by Inder Salim as "lord Rama" or suchlike.  And 
of course, Rama's moral ambiguity in relation to Sita is not Inder's 
invention but lies at the very core of Valmiki's account itself.  
Valmiki was a poet, and thus not so clear cut, and far more willing to 
admit to ambiguity than some of his stupid, literal-minded followers 
today.  As Ramanujan argues: if we truly respect and love the traditions 
of the Ramayan, then we should want to celebrate the dizzying 
multiplicity of versions and interpretations.

Incidentally, it is only homosexuals that ought to be offended by Inder 
Salim's putting the word "gandu".  However (I could be wrong) something 
in the post tells me that Inder has perhaps nothing against homosexuals, 
and maybe, that he "rather relishes" them.

So on the question of whether certain words should be used on this list, 
I think we disagree, Kirdar.  I could, if needed, go through each 
instance of a "bad word" in Inder's posting and justify its use there.  
I doubt very much that the crematorium workers in Inder's story would 
talk like high society butterflies.  They might well use ritual insults 
to add colour and rhythm to their sentences-- we all know swearing can 
be an art form, although some of us are not so skilled in our own use! I 
have  no problem with such words appearing in our texts the way they 
appear habitually in the mouths of our people-- I would be against us 
using those words against each other of course, but that is a different 
question altogether. 

For a neuroscientist's view on the subject, take a look at this: 
http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/15-09/pl_print (I 
read the whole essay online, but I can't find it now-- can anyone?)

But I do still request an explanation *with supporting quotes* that 
tells what about Inder's "symbolism" you find offensive.  Please.

And to Mohit-- you ask what made me "suddenly jump in this issue".  
Well, I could ask you the same thing, but I already know the answer: we 
both jumped in suddenly because everyone has a right to jump in, and 
does so, on this list.  Although, if I may say so, I feel I jumped in a 
little less suddenly than you, and I jumped in because you jumped in, 
and because I felt that Inder's posting was not being read carefully enough.

However, here lies a mystery.  Kirdar says, in his reply below, that he 
has "no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story" and that he 
even "appreciates" parts of it.  Furthermore, he argues that Inder's 
note has been "simply misunderstood" as a provocation.  How true!  So in 
other words, he agrees with me that there is nothing, when considered 
closely, to take religious offence from Inder's posting.  (What he 
objects to, I guess, is art.  Like Plato, he would wish to exile the 
poets from the republic.)  Mohit, for his part, insists that he has not 
"said anything against [Inder's] posting" -- which suggests that he has 
no problems with it and does not take any offence from it all.

This means that I was wrong, and I apologise for assuming that Kirdar 
and Mohit were offended.  Going by the quotes above, at least, neither 
of them found any problematic religious offence in Inder's post-- which 
is exactly as it should be!

Perhaps we might now begin talking about the actual substance of Inder's 
post?

Time out
Vivek

kirdar singh wrote:
> Dear Vivek
> I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that
> some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit"
> folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and
> you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for
> you and vis a versa.
>
> Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I
> don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past
> and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language
> and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's
> following phrase very seriously:
>
> "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this."
>
> Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his
> religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a
> Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the
> fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a
> "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a
> further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of
> such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims.
> Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which
> you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer
> creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify).
>
> But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want
> to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer
> be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned,
> Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings
> first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you
> may disagree.
>
> Kirdar
>
> (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got
> the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences)
>
>
>
>   


From vivek at sarai.net  Wed Mar  5 02:24:48 2008
From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:24:48 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
In-Reply-To: <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY>
Message-ID: <47CDB718.2030505@sarai.net>

Oh, and for the record, I'd like to say that I personally don't feel 
very offended by the content of Mohit's statement below-- it is not 
particularly poetic or insightful and sounds to me like the verbal 
equivalent of the barking of a guard dog, but that's a different matter, 
and no problem as long as the grrr-ruf-ruffing doesn't disturb the peace 
throughout the night.  No need to be alarmed-- there are fewer criminals 
to bite on the streets than we might think.

May I be permitted to say that I found Salman Rushdie's critique far 
more eloquent, imaginative and full of effort than yours, Mohit?  I love 
the phrase "enjoys herself with others", though.

V.

MRSG wrote:
> Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>   


From mrsg at vsnl.com  Wed Mar  5 10:18:11 2008
From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:18:11 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju
References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com>
	<"00 0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY> <47CDB718.2030505@sarai.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c87e87$058d7320$0201a8c0@MRAY>

Dear Vivek, you have expected from me a critique like "Salman Rushdie's 
critique far more eloquent, imaginative and full of effort". Whether Inder's 
posting deserves that or whether I am capable of such effort can be set 
aside for the time being. But your sublime wish has been 'poetically' 
expressed comparing my interaction with "verbal equivalent of the barking of 
a guard dog and no problem as long as the grrr-ruf-ruffing doesn't disturb 
the peace throughout the night. " . Barring the animal rights activist, I 
think anyone with human sense would not much appreciate this poetry.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Vivek Narayanan" <vivek at sarai.net>
To: "MRSG" <mrsg at vsnl.com>
Cc: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>; "sarai list" 
<reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju


> Oh, and for the record, I'd like to say that I personally don't feel very 
> offended by the content of Mohit's statement below-- it is not 
> particularly poetic or insightful and sounds to me like the verbal 
> equivalent of the barking of a guard dog, but that's a different matter, 
> and no problem as long as the grrr-ruf-ruffing doesn't disturb the peace 
> throughout the night.  No need to be alarmed-- there are fewer criminals 
> to bite on the streets than we might think.
>
> May I be permitted to say that I found Salman Rushdie's critique far more 
> eloquent, imaginative and full of effort than yours, Mohit?  I love the 
> phrase "enjoys herself with others", though.
>
> V.
>
> MRSG wrote:
>> Waiting for a story on  Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make
>> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha
>> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson.
>>
> 


From waliarifi3 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  5 11:41:50 2008
From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 11:41:50 +0530
Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book
Message-ID: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com>

In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review of
India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy
by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00

------------------------------------------

A Chronicle for India Shining

by Sanjay Kak
*
Biblio* July-August 2007

Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his
newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the more
reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book India after
Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from it's
title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's Largest
Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end papers,
which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to have
been preparation for the writing of this book.

So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India (after
Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, but for
now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny Walker
kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern
historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of the
Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of things to
come.

There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian arrives
at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is that
all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this republic
is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and 'victory',
turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or place in
human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly diverse, so
vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, or
addressed with such directness by the political system and the media".

I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the way
from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, Nagaland,
Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a very long
list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian nation has
been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or
managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has not even
appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts.

Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success story
of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of
politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, but
Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the main,
narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. From
Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative p