[Reader-list] Use Jihadis to resolve Kashmir issue & Jihad against USA, says Pak Govt., offici
kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 19 19:04:56 IST 2007
1. You may presume to speak for the Iqbal who is long dead and gone but during his lifetime Iqbal often made reference to his Kashmiri Pandit ancestry and did not dismiss it. You need to study your Iqbal better.
The issue was with you calling Iqbal a Kashmiri Pandit. Iqbal was not. You need to correct yourself.
2. About the switch in Kashmir to a Muslim majority area you write:
"I don't know if the region becoming Muslim majority was necessarily a
good or a bad thing over the 1000 year history as you suggest. With
due consideration of KP sensitivities, I'll leave this judgment to
That judgment is perhaps easily addressed by comparing the two respective periods in terms of whether the lives of the people became better, did the new ideology ennoble them, was there an evolving of the philosophical, intellectual, literary and social heritage in a productive manner.
If you know your history of pre and post 'advent of Islam' into Kashmir the answer would be NO. The advent of Islam practically brought to a full-stop the contributions from Kashmir to the rest of the world. That should tell you something.
Societies are not judged at all on declarations like "We have our Allah, Quran, Mohammed" or "We have our Paramatma, Gita, Krishna, Ram" or "We have our God, Bible, Jesus, Mary".
3. Yasir, what is the controversy about Bankim's Vande Mataram? I know of none other than the one of some Muslims not wanting to sing it. That is not a controversy about Vande Mataram but about some people demonstrating that their allegiance to India (the Mother) is superceded by allegiance to some notional entity. These Muslims will on one hand cry themselves hoarse that "secularism' is being threatened and on the other hand seek to reinforce an Islamist agenda for the Muslims of India. They are a despicable lot and just like the Hindutva brigade (of India should be a Hindu country; Pakistan should be absorbed back into India) are a threat to security and peace in India. Both should be firmly neutralised.
About Tagore's Jana Gana Mana there is hardly any controversy. Through Tagore's correspondence it has been established that he was instructed/commissioned and wrote it in welcome for George V referred to as the "Adhinayak" and "Bhagya Vidhata". Tagore's explanations/excuses about his motivations are hardly important.
You are right Yasir, "Saaray Jahaan Se Achhaa" is one of India's national songs.
Just as the purpose of Jana Gana Mana does not pertain to nationalist India, similarly the philosophy of "Saaray Jahaan" is far removed from addressing "all" people of India. Yet India has embraced both and that is a tribute to the people of India.
4. Yasir, would you care to explain, who is the "hamaara" if not the "Muslim collective- the Ummah"? What "kaaravaan" descended on the banks of Ganga?
You do need to study "Iqbaaliyaat" some more if Frances Pritchett's site is all you can call upon. Without doubt Iqbal is one of the most significant personalities from our region. You trivialise Iqbal with some of your comments.
5. Yasir, you might be from the education sector and may "have visited SDPI many times" but you obviously have not gone through the research I had referred to. If you had, you would not so casually dismiss it's import.
You however mention of a lot of "some this" and "some that". Influences that are; some "Zia's Legacy"; some "religousity/sect"; some "parents"; some "region-social setup"; some "dose of islamic ideology"; some "revisionist". In between you have also plugged in some "etc". I wonder how many and of what kind.
The sum of all those "somes" add up to Pakistan being a country that rears it's children on "hate", feeds it's people with "hate agendas" and feeds off "hate".
6. This "thread" started with the "Jihad" call in Pakistan's National Assembly. It was not dismissed or questioned or contradicted in the PNA.
It was not an aberration.
On 14th August we saw (in a programme co-hosted by GEO and NDTV) Gen Aslam Beg declare that after the Jihadis had vanquished USA in Afghanistan and Iraq, they would concentrate their attention on Kashmir.
That is the reality of Pakistani 'thought'/'philosophy".
The people of Kashmir can look forward to the Jihadis brutally killing, butchering, hanging innocents; women being raped and abducted into forced "nikkah".
yasir ~ <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:
thanks for writing. comments below.
On 8/11/07, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:
> Allow me a few observations.
> 1. Iqbal was not a Kashmiri Pandit. His ancestors were Kashmiri Pandits.
> Iqbal was a Muslim.
Yes I think Iqbal would be comfortable with this distance (ancestors).
> 2. Your mentioning the Kashmiri Pandit connection only serves as a reminder
> that a once Kashmiri Pandit majority region in just a few hundred years
> became a Muslim majority area and along with it the reminder brings the
> history of how the switchover took place. This is not the time and place to
> go into it. It is a painful reminder. Calling Iqbal a Kashmiri Pandit is an
> abuse of Kashmiri Pandit sensitivities about a unique ethnicity which is on
> the verge of extinction.
I dont know if the region becoming muslim majority was necessarily a
good or a bad thing over the 1000 year history as you suggest. With
due consideration of KP sensitivities, i'll leave this judgment to
> 3. "Saaray Jahaan say achhaa...." is one of the National Songs of India. It
> is amusing that it recognised as being so with Indians not realising the
> full import of this "Taraana e Hind".
the controversies over Bankim Chattopadhyay's vande mataram, Tagore's
jana gana mana are just as amusing. but such amalgamations and blends
are the stuff of history and everyday life. how can you escape.
> "Taraana e Hind" celebrates and declares the Claim of Muslims on
> "Hind". It that respect it is not very much different from Iqbal's "Taraana
> e Milli". It does not address all the people of "Hind". It is meant only for
it is very different and very similar
> 4. Before ill-informed hackles become antennae tuning into presumed
> suspicious and prejudiced intent, let me explain.
didnt know you had an interest in astrology
> After celebrating the glory of "Hindustaan" in the first few couplets,
> Iqbal reveals his mind in:
> ai aab-e-ruud-e-gangaa vo din hai yaad tujh ko
> utaraa tere kinaare jab kaaravaa.N hamaaraa
> Iqbal asks River Ganga to recollect the time when "hamaara kaarvaan"
> descended on it's banks. The "haamaara' is the Muslim collective, the
> "Ummah" in the form of advent of Islam. The indigenous faith people were
> always resident on the banks of Ganga.
for the litarary and folk minded however to reach is the shore is a
blessed thing - mujhe paar laga, beda paar kar. there is no reference
to an ummah here and besides thats too puritanical - mulla-ish. so
reaching the ganges is like reaching the shores of heaven, or may be
its even betterr? just the previous verse says this ! why ignore this
Godee mein khailtee hein uss kee hazaaron naddiyaan
Gulshan hai jin ke dam se rask-e-jinaa~ hamaara
in [her] lap play all her thousands of rivers
thanks to which our garden is the envy of Paradise(s)
[jannat-paradise, jinaan-plural, nasalised jinaa~ - poetic]
> Similarly, lack of knowledge about Islamic terminology has led to a
> spin quite different from the inherent meaning in:
> mazhab nahii.n sikhaataa aapas me.n bair rakhanaa
> hindii hai.n ham vatan hai hindustaa.N hamaaraa
> "Mazhab" does not refer to "Religions" of Hindustaan being asked to not
> harbour enmity against each other. "Mazhab" (variant of Maddhab in Arabic)
> is a specific term used in Islam for "sects". The religion of Islam by
> itself is called "Deen". "Sunni" and "Shia" would be "Mazhabs". The couplet
> addresses itself to Muslims belonging to various sects in Islam
i think your reading is without doubt narrow - based on the internal
contextual meaning of mazhab-i-islam and mazahibs within. but in the
multireligious context ie everyday life, there is hindu mat or hindu
mazhab, buddh mat or buddh mazhab or eesai or yahudi mazhab. so
mazahib is all religions of hind in this context. something else which
supports this is that we are not dealing in arabic here. we are
talking about an Urdu ghazal or two Urdu ghazals in the Indian context
- well that goes without saying - how much more Indian can u get !
> Yasir, your well intentioned messages addressed to Rashneek also merit
> comment but I will not inflict too much on you.
wait i have to scratch my elbow
> In my opinion your grossly underestimate both the strength of the J-Lobby in
> Pakistan and the pervasiveness of the J-Sentiment amongst the masses of
> Pakistan. The "askari" (armed) J-Sentiment is directed against both people
> of other "Deen" (Religions) and followers of differing "maddhabs" (sects
> within Islam)
that is my estimation, thank you.
'deen' is closer to 'faith' or 'doctrine'
mazhab is as close to religion or sect as you can get - meaning the
whole of practices beliefs etc of that group.
unless you are going to a seminary, you'd stick with ordinary
> I personally monitor only 3 Pakistani TV Channels and Internet editions of
> 3 Pakistani English Newspapers. The picture that emerges is quite quite
> different from your all too optimistic scenarios. It is likely to be more
> horrifying with greater exposure to Pakistani Media, especially the
> "indigenous languages" newspapers.
yes I would find it horrifying if it were so, but i dont from here on
the ground, plus all the media. in fact the current trend is to check
appurtenances of zia's legacy, some of course credit this to the other
> Yasir, it is simplistically believed that the "hate others" attitude in
> Pakistan is nurtured and propagated only by the "Madrassas". The "hate"
> indoctrination of young Pakistani minds is an automatic product of the
> syllabi in Govt. Schools. In is in those schools that the overwhelmingly
> overwhelming majority of Pakistani children school.
i think an overstatement. it is not that automatic. other factors are
religousity/sect of parents, region-social setup, etc. The textbooks
are nationalistic (with a dose of islamic ideology but not extremism)
and revisionist. Adjectives from the american idiom (hate, other) or
soviet (indoctrination ) need not apply.
> If this interests you, please do get in touch with "Sustainable Development
> Policy Institute - Islamabad" ( http://www.sdpi.org/ ) The Institute's A M
> Nayyar and Ahmed Salim have done some good work in researching Pakistani
> textbooks in Social Studies, English, Urdu and Civic Studies.
I have worked in the education sector and have visited sdpi many times. thanks.
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